ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2013, 12:33:56 am »
I do not accept the premise that absolute nothing must exist.  I do not accept the premise that the universe began to exist...the universe began to expand 13.7 billion years ago...we simply don't know enough to state that "the universe" in which you want to define it began at that point.  I do not accept the premise that the only cause for such a beginning if I were to concede the above is a conscious mind.

And then I have other issues with statements you've made that I've talked about before that don't need repeating.

But I'd like move away from that as we aren't going to get anywhere on a subject as mysterious as the origins of what we call the universe.  Agree to disagree.

I'd also like to move away from the Bible.  All I needed to know is whether or not you think saying "because it says so in the Bible" is a valid argument.  You do.  That ends that issue and it's pointless even going there.

I would like to discuss your objective morality take and find out how you feel about what Craig says on the problem of suffering.

I don't mind your take on objective morality in the sense that I agree..."if God exists...objective morals and duties exist"..."if God does not exist...objective morals and duties do not exist"

I agree with those two.  I don't agree that "evil" exists because you are using that term in a different way than I would.

But again, I must say I feel like you are somewhat dodging my point about this.  Does that mean you disagree with Craig's assertion that the "ends justify the means"?  Maybe I have not been clear enough.

Do you think it is objectively wrong to rape an innocent man or woman?  If so, on what worldview do you base this on?  If it is always wrong in an absolute sense...then how is God justified to permit the evil in the world?  Craig claims that God allows such actions because it has a ripple effect that humans can't see and it ultimately leads to the best possible universe for people to realize the true meaning of life...which Craig states as knowing God.

So if the rape of an innocent girl were to lead the most souls to salvation.  How can such action be deemed objectively immoral on your worldview?  It very much can be deemed wrong on the subjective level of humans, but it can't be objectively wrong on the worldview that "the ends justify the means".  For something to be objectively wrong, it must be wrong independent of what we as humans think about such thing.  So if God exists and he permits such actions in a way that lead the most souls to salvation...you nor I nor anyone is in a position to call something objectively wrong.  We'd have to know the end result of all actions in order to do so. 

It seems Craig is confusing subjectivity with objectivity on his own worldview.  If you connect the dots on Craig's worldview, he is basically saying..."it is objectively wrong to take part in an action that ultimately leads to the best of all possible results".  What an absurd statement.  Again, on his own worldview, Craig claims God created the best of all universes and his sufficient moral reason to allow the universe to exist in the state it does because it allows the most souls to reach salvation.

If you disagree with Craig.  Please state your opinion on the matter.  I read your problem of evil link, but it was bogged down by too many passages from the bible.  Again, I flatly reject the "because it says so in the Bible" argument.

If you continue to insist on using that argument...I believe we are unfortunately at an impasse.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 12:46:09 am by ginobli2311 »

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2013, 12:51:20 am »
I do not accept the premise that absolute nothing must exist.  I do not accept the premise that the universe began to exist...the universe began to expand 13.7 billion years ago...we simply don't know enough to state that "the universe" in which you want to define it began at that point.  I do not accept the premise that the only cause for such a beginning if I were to concede the above is a conscious mind.
Why not? Which if any of the premises is false or implausible?


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I flatly reject the "because it says so in the Bible" argument.
If it is precisely what it claims to be, why would you do such a thing?
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Do you think it is objectively wrong to rape an innocent man or woman?
Indeed.
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If so, on what worldview do you base this on?
On this one:
"“If, however, it is in the field that the man found the girl who was engaged, and the man grabbed hold of her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her must also die by himself, and to the girl you must do nothing. " -Deuteronomy 22:25,26
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If it is always wrong in an absolute sense...then how is God justified to permit the evil in the world?
It's what mankind, in general, wants.

May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2013, 08:11:05 am »
It would be intellectually dishonest of me to call a premise false or true that I don't know it to be.  Or assign probability to such premises as well.  What I say, and have said, is that there is no good reason to assume knowledge in this area such as you do.  Again, I'm not arguing that there is no God or that I know something I can't possibly know.  I'm saying that using premises that you have no evidence for to prove God's existence should not be allowed in this sense.  Your entire argument on the origin of the universe falls apart if the absolute nothing you need is not possible in the real world.  Because you have no evidence for absolute nothing...or evidence for a mind existing outside of time and space.  Such premises are mere speculation and clearly developed with an end goal in mind.

What does the Bible claim to be according to you?  Again, I don't see how that is a valid argument.  Why?  Because I seriously doubt you take everything in the Bible seriously.  I'll take a couple things from Deuteronomy to quote from the same book you do.  Do you kill all the people that worship a God different than yours like it instructs in Deuteronomy 13:12-16?  If not, why?  Or how about killing someone who doesn't listen to a priest like it says in Deuteronomy 17:12-13?  If not, why?  I don't take that argument seriously because the Bible is a flawed document full of contradictions and instructions that you would find objectively immoral.  Which again surprises me.  I struggle to understand how you can't see how playing this game is pointless.

You say it is objectively wrong to rape a girl, but again I think you are confusing objectivity with subjectivity here.  If, on your worldview, that God permits suffering to achieve his ultimate goal...then a rape that leads to the most people getting to know God is not objectively wrong on your own worldview.  It would be subjectively wrong for a human to take part in such an action, but if God exists and it gets the most souls to know him..that action is actually not objectively wrong.

Now, it seems you do not think God is all powerful and all knowing.  That begs the question...would a being still be God if it wasn't all powerful and all knowing.  You seem to imply that God didn't know what was going to happen in advance.  Do you believe this?  Even if I were to concede that the story of Adam and Eve is true (again, no evidence whatsoever for such a thing)...it still would not change anything here.  God, being all powerful and all knowing and outside of time and space, would know the choices Adam and Eve would make and the result of those actions.  Craig understands this conundrum and uses an "ends justify the means" approach. 

But again, without knowing the end result of any action, you are in no position to call something objectively wrong on the worldview the God exists.

I'll ask it another way.  If you knew the rape of an innocent girl caused 1 million more people to end up in heaven than would without the rape...would you still call it objectively wrong?

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2013, 06:22:02 pm »
I'm saying that using premises that you have no evidence for to prove God's existence should not be allowed in this sense. 

“Being does not arise from nonbeing”; “something cannot come from nothing”. These are putative metaphysical principles, like cause and effect, unrestricted in their application. Thence, we have very good grounds, both conceptually and scientifically, for believing that whatever begins to exist has a cause.


Accordingly, there is no reason to arbitrarily assert that metaphysical principles are constrained to the natural universe. Unless, of course, you have evidence which necessarily construes such principles as merely physical rather than metaphysical. Do you?


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Do you kill all the people that worship a God different than yours like it instructs in Deuteronomy 13:12-16?  If not, why?  Or how about killing someone who doesn't listen to a priest like it says in Deuteronomy 17:12-13?  If not, why?
I do not for the same reason Canadians aren't enjoined by Philippine laws and the British don't abide by Australian laws.


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the Bible is a flawed document full of contradictions and instructions that you would find objectively immoral.
Can you give me some examples?
And
On what objective moral basis do you dare condemn anyone's actions? Who made you God?


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If, on your worldview, that God permits suffering to achieve his ultimate goal...then a rape that leads to the most people getting to know God is not objectively wrong on your own worldview.
You misapprehend. Rape is wrong, period. This is why God proscribed it and instructed the ancient Israelites to execute rapists.


That Jehovah God can use any circumstance to advance his purposes is not germane to our discussion. Follow?


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it seems you do not think God is all powerful and all knowing.
Jehovah God most certainly is all powerful and can know all things. That he chooses to use his prescience, for instance, in discreet measures so that his intelligent creation can enjoy free will does not diminish his abilities in the slightest.


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If you knew the rape of an innocent girl caused 1 million more people to end up in heaven than would without the rape...would you still call it objectively wrong?
Considering what I've just shared with you, this question is based on false premises. God has no need for acts of evil and, as such, evil is always evil and punished accordingly.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2013, 06:54:21 pm »
Do you have any evidence that absolute nothing exists?  Please provide it if you do. 
Do you have any evidence that a mind can consist without a brain?  Please provide it if you do.

I'm not making claims.  You are.  You have the burden of proof!

If you can't...I see no reason, on your on basis, to accept these premises.

So you admit to picking and choosing commands from the Bible.  Great.

I don't have an objective moral basis.  I have a subjective human basis.  Have you really not followed this?  I would never pretend to know what is objectively right.  I am simply a human being and all I can do is use reason, experience, history, discussion..etc. to determine what actions should be deemed subjectively right and wrong.

Rape is wrong, period.  But not objectively if it leads to a greater good.  Sorry, you can't have it both ways.  I totally agree that subjectively from a human standpoint, rape is always wrong.  Or at least I feel comfortable saying that just as you do.  However, that is not absolute or objective.  Again, if the rape of a girl leads to an ultimate greater good...such action is no longer objectively wrong. 

I was talking about an all powerful being because I got the sense that you didn't think God knew in advance that Adam and Eve (whom never existed by the way) would be tempted by the devil (again, no evidence to support the devil exists).  So if God knows what is going to happen, he has a moral responsibility by creating such a world as this.  Again, you can't ignore this.  Craig sees this issue and explains it by the only way possible.  "God is mysterious and he may have morally sufficient reasons to create such a universe because the end result justifies the means"...that isn't a quote, but an accurate summation of his view.  So if you disagree, please tell me in what way.  But if you do, you have no basis to call any action objectively right or wrong without knowing the ultimate result of said action.  Only God can call something that way.  Which brings us back to an agreement that if God exists...objective/absolute morality exists.  Bingo, but as humans, we could never know what actions are objectively moral because we don't know the end result.  Thus you have no basis for calling something objectively wrong.

You see?  You can only have rape if God created the universe on your worldview.  So the only way rape is possible is because of God.  So he must have sufficient moral reasons for creating such a universe that involves rape.  You can't play the free will card when the only way such action can take place is because of God. 

It would be like a human being creating a robot that had complete free will, but see in advance that the robot would kill 1 billion innocent people, but that action would ultimately lead to a better world.  Would you call that human being moral for creating such a robot knowing in advance that 1 billion people would die as a result but the world would ultimately be a better place? 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 07:17:41 pm by ginobli2311 »

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2013, 08:18:30 pm »
Do you have any evidence that absolute nothing exists?  Please provide it if you do.
Certainly. Death.


When you die, in effect you "become" nothing.


As an aside, I find this whole controversy inconsequential for if "nothing" is meaningless then so are "something" and "anything."


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Do you have any evidence that a mind can consist without a brain?  Please provide it if you do.
Certainly. The Bible is proof of this.


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So you admit to picking and choosing commands from the Bible.  Great.
Strawman. Try again.


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I don't have an objective moral basis.
Then you have no basis to condemn anyone's actions as immoral. You'd be doing nothing more extraordinary than expressing your personal preferences.


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Rape is wrong, period.  But not objectively if it leads to a greater good.
Strawman. Try again.


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I got the sense that you didn't think God knew in advance that Adam and Eve (whom never existed by the way) would be tempted by the devil (again, no evidence to support the devil exists).
First, that God didn't know does not mean he couldn't have known. As I explicated earlier, Jehovah God employs his prescience in discreet measures so as to not interfere with his intelligent creation's free will.

Regardless, since nothing and no one can ever frustrate his purposes, that man has free will is irrelevant.

Second, your claims concerning Adam, Eve and Satan are all argumentum ex silentio fallacies. Nonexistence is proven false based on positive evidence of its falsehood not on negative evidence. That's not how rational thought works.

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It would be like a human being creating a robot that had complete free will, but see in advance that the robot would kill 1 billion innocent people, but that action would ultimately lead to a better world.
Argumentum per falsam analogiam for the already stated reasons.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 08:20:27 pm by Maxximiliann »
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2013, 08:07:48 am »
Wow.  What a mess.

You have no idea what happens when you die.  Again you pretend to know something you can't possibly know.  The idea of "absolute nothing" matters because it is necessary for your arguments.  How is that not important?  You are asserting that the universe began to exist out of "absolute nothing"...the first problem is that you have no evidence that absolute nothing is possible...which is bad enough, but now you are saying that the "nothing" you need for your entire cosmological argument is inconsequential?  I'm confused.

The Bible is not proof that a mind can exist without a brain.  Again you pretend to know something you can't possibly know.

It is not a strawman to state the accepted fact that you admitted.  You pick and choose what you take from the Bible to follow.  I don't condemn such action at all...I'm glad you do it.  And you should readily admit to doing it.

You are right.  I only have a subjective basis to call someone's actions right or wrong based on personal preference, experience, debate, history...etc.  I have never claimed anything other than that.  So please stop asserting that I am claiming to have knowledge of absolute morality.  It's absurd and a red herring to keep dodging the questions.

Again.  Not a strawman.  You claim that it is objectively wrong to rape.  Then I asked you if something can be objectively wrong if it leads to a greater good.  And you continue to dodge, but ultimately landed on the notion that "God has sufficient moral reasons to allow rape in order to reach a greater good"...so on that worldview (the one you support) you have no right to call something objectively wrong without knowing the end result. 

Rational thought works by not allowing someone to claim something to be true with no evidence.  As there is no evidence that Adam and Eve existed (as many religious people now accept by the way)...then there is no reason to give credence to the notion they existed.  But I don't even want to argue that.  That point doesn't matter for this discussion.  I might have misspoken earlier, I should not claim to know with certainty that Adam and Eve did not exist, I should say that there is no evidence for their existence.  I apologize if I asserted something I can't possibly know.  However, all evidence is to the contrary that Adam and Eve and a talking snake and the garden of eden existed.

Again, how do you know what the Jehova God's will is? 

But you still won't come out an answer simple questions.  If the rape of a girl leads ultimately to a greater good...is that action objectively wrong?  You can't run from the fact that the only way "rape" exists in the first place on your worldview is because God created the universe.  Therefore God must have sufficient moral reasons to create a universe with rape in it.  Therefore if God is objectively moral (which he is by definition on your worldview) then any action that ultimately leads to a greater good (in the sense of more people getting to know God if that is the point of the universe as Craig asserts) can not be deemed objectively wrong.  Such actions could be deemed subjectively wrong from the human standpoint, but in an absolute or objective stance they simply can't.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 10:38:11 am by ginobli2311 »

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2013, 10:52:45 am »
You have no idea what happens when you die. 
Sure I do. Just as Darwin's "Origin of the Species" explains evolution, the Bible explains what happens to us when we die.
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You are asserting that the universe began to exist out of "absolute nothing"
Strawman. Try again.


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It is not a strawman to state the accepted fact that you admitted.
It is a strawman since you make the implication that I shirk a necessary responsibility. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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[You] ultimately landed on the notion that "God has sufficient moral reasons to allow rape in order to reach a greater good"
(Bracket mine.)
Strawman. As I've already indicated, "That Jehovah God can use any circumstance to advance his purposes is not germane to our discussion." Do you grasp the implications of this statement?
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I apologize if I asserted something I can't possibly know.
No worries. Apology accepted! :)
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However, all evidence is to the contrary that Adam and Eve and a talking snake and the garden of eden existed.
What evidence are you referring to?
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Again, how do you know what the Jehova God's will is?
He clearly makes it known within the pages of Bible.
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If the rape of a girl leads ultimately to a greater good...is that action objectively wrong?
I thought I was clear on my position: Yes, it is objectively wrong.
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Therefore God must have sufficient moral reasons to create a universe with rape in it.
You misapprehend. Rape exists because of man's sinful condition and his abuse of the gift of free will he has received from God. These will receive their just recompense at Armageddon. However, the fact that one has free will does not necessarily mean one will automatically be a rapist. Christ demonstrated that it is possible to be good and remain as such no matter what pressures or influence are exerted to turn one to evil. This is why he is the greatest man who ever lived.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2013, 01:27:46 pm »
You have no idea what happens when you die. 
Sure I do. Just as Darwin's "Origin of the Species" explains evolution, the Bible explains what happens to us when we die.
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You are asserting that the universe began to exist out of "absolute nothing"
Strawman. Try again.


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It is not a strawman to state the accepted fact that you admitted.
It is a strawman since you make the implication that I shirk a necessary responsibility. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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[You] ultimately landed on the notion that "God has sufficient moral reasons to allow rape in order to reach a greater good"
(Bracket mine.)
Strawman. As I've already indicated, "That Jehovah God can use any circumstance to advance his purposes is not germane to our discussion." Do you grasp the implications of this statement?
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I apologize if I asserted something I can't possibly know.
No worries. Apology accepted! :)
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However, all evidence is to the contrary that Adam and Eve and a talking snake and the garden of eden existed.
What evidence are you referring to?
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Again, how do you know what the Jehova God's will is?
He clearly makes it known within the pages of Bible.
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If the rape of a girl leads ultimately to a greater good...is that action objectively wrong?
I thought I was clear on my position: Yes, it is objectively wrong.
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Therefore God must have sufficient moral reasons to create a universe with rape in it.
You misapprehend. Rape exists because of man's sinful condition and his abuse of the gift of free will he has received from God. These will receive their just recompense at Armageddon. However, the fact that one has free will does not necessarily mean one will automatically be a rapist. Christ demonstrated that it is possible to be good and remain as such no matter what pressures or influence are exerted to turn one to evil. This is why he is the greatest man who ever lived.

I will address the morality first.  The reason rape exists is because God created the universe.  If he is all knowing as you proclaim, then he knew rape would happen by creating the universe...therefore God had sufficient moral reasons to create a universe in which rape exists.  Therefore the ends justify the means.  Even Craig acknowledges this issue.  You can't have rape without God on your worldview.  So what comes first?  The rape or God?  Clearly God.  So it does play a role in this discussion.

The rest is just sadly "because it says so in the Bible"...which ultimately every person of faith is forced to go back to once they are backed into a corner.

I've enjoyed the debate, but sadly this can't progress further.  You assert that it is a valid argument to say "because it says so in the Bible"...and I flatly reject such.

Again...thanks for the invigorating discussion and enjoy your weekend.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2013, 01:34:05 pm »
You assert that it is a valid argument to say "because it says so in the Bible"...and I flatly reject such.
That's fine, you certainly have every right to your opinion. However, can you at least give me a reason justifying your preconception?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2013, 02:00:33 pm »
You assert that it is a valid argument to say "because it says so in the Bible"...and I flatly reject such.
That's fine, you certainly have every right to your opinion. However, can you at least give me a reason justifying your preconception?

Because I don't believe it to be the word of God.  I believe it to be the writings of men based on translations of copies of copies of copies...that often contradict each other and make claims that aren't compatible with the world I live in.

One simple example would be how I am supposed to read the passage that during the time of the crucifixion, all the graves were opened and saints arose and walked the streets...or something to that extent.  It seems rather common for these things to occur back then...which makes the alleged resurrection of Jesus seem like anything but a miracle. 

That is just one of thousands of examples/reasons I could list. 

You comparing the Bible to a scientific work like Origin of the Species and thinking both are backed up by the same type of evidence...or at least similarly convincing evidence simply means we have reached a point in which further discussion is pointless.

I'm also confused on how you can believe in evolution but also think Adam and Even existed in the sense of the Bible.  Those two ideas simply are not compatible.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 02:02:56 pm by ginobli2311 »

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2013, 08:14:36 pm »
You assert that it is a valid argument to say "because it says so in the Bible"...and I flatly reject such.
That's fine, you certainly have every right to your opinion. However, can you at least give me a reason justifying your preconception?

Because I don't believe it to be the word of God.
Have you ever given serious consideration to the vast body of evidence for its preternatural authorship?

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One simple example would be how I am supposed to read the passage that during the time of the crucifixion, all the graves were opened and saints arose and walked the streets
What specific passage are you referring to?
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I'm also confused on how you can believe in evolution but also think Adam and Even existed in the sense of the Bible.
Why not? I dont' follow.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2013, 10:13:59 am »
You assert that it is a valid argument to say "because it says so in the Bible"...and I flatly reject such.
That's fine, you certainly have every right to your opinion. However, can you at least give me a reason justifying your preconception?

Because I don't believe it to be the word of God.
Have you ever given serious consideration to the vast body of evidence for its preternatural authorship?

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One simple example would be how I am supposed to read the passage that during the time of the crucifixion, all the graves were opened and saints arose and walked the streets
What specific passage are you referring to?
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I'm also confused on how you can believe in evolution but also think Adam and Even existed in the sense of the Bible.
Why not? I dont' follow.

Like I said before, I don't think there is vast evidence at all for that.  I think it is far more likely that it is a collection of writing from human beings...and that is all.  Check out this video interview with John Huddlestun on the subject;

http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/6/24/a-conversation-with-richard-dawkins-and-john-huddleston-college-of-charleston?videos=true

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
~ Matthew 27:52-53

I believe this is only in the gospel of Matthew and not the other 3.  Even Craig has no idea what to make of it and remains undecided on what it means.

You'll have to explain to me your take on Adam and Eve.  Because human beings share a common ancestor with chimpanzees and evolved from the same single cell organism that all life on the planet did.  I don't find that compatible with the story of Adam and Eve in the bible.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 10:20:08 am by ginobli2311 »

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2013, 09:45:36 am »

Like I said before, I don't think there is vast evidence at all for that.

I kindly invite you, then, to consider a portion of the body of evidence for the Bible's preternatural origin.


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I think it is far more likely that it is a collection of writing from human beings...and that is all.  Check out this video interview with John Huddlestun on the subject;


http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/6/24/a-conversation-with-richard-dawkins-and-john-huddleston-college-of-charleston?videos=true
With all due respect and kindness, do you know what an argumentum ex silentio fallacy and why such reasoning is sophistic?


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“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
~ Matthew 27:52-53


I believe this is only in the gospel of Matthew and not the other 3.  Even Craig has no idea what to make of it and remains undecided on what it means.
It's a pretty simple passage to understand if you view it in context. You see, the text at Matthew 27:52, 53 explains that this unprecedented event was the direct result of an earthquake occurring at the time of Jesus’ death. Moreover, a comparison with the texts concerning the resurrection makes clear that these verses do not describe a resurrection but merely a throwing of bodies out of their tombs, similar to incidents that have taken place in more recent times, as in Ecuador in 1949 and again in Bogotá, Colombia, in 1962, when 200 corpses in the cemetery were thrown out of their tombs by a violent earth tremor.—El Tiempo, Bogotá, Colombia, July 31, 1962.


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I don't find that compatible with the story of Adam and Eve in the bible.
Why? As far as I know, the theory of evolution draws no conclusions on the existence of God.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2013, 12:52:49 pm »

Like I said before, I don't think there is vast evidence at all for that.

I kindly invite you, then, to consider a portion of the body of evidence for the Bible's preternatural origin.


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I think it is far more likely that it is a collection of writing from human beings...and that is all.  Check out this video interview with John Huddlestun on the subject;


http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/6/24/a-conversation-with-richard-dawkins-and-john-huddleston-college-of-charleston?videos=true
With all due respect and kindness, do you know what an argumentum ex silentio fallacy and why such reasoning is sophistic?


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“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
~ Matthew 27:52-53


I believe this is only in the gospel of Matthew and not the other 3.  Even Craig has no idea what to make of it and remains undecided on what it means.
It's a pretty simple passage to understand if you view it in context. You see, the text at Matthew 27:52, 53 explains that this unprecedented event was the direct result of an earthquake occurring at the time of Jesus’ death. Moreover, a comparison with the texts concerning the resurrection makes clear that these verses do not describe a resurrection but merely a throwing of bodies out of their tombs, similar to incidents that have taken place in more recent times, as in Ecuador in 1949 and again in Bogotá, Colombia, in 1962, when 200 corpses in the cemetery were thrown out of their tombs by a violent earth tremor.—El Tiempo, Bogotá, Colombia, July 31, 1962.


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I don't find that compatible with the story of Adam and Eve in the bible.
Why? As far as I know, the theory of evolution draws no conclusions on the existence of God.

Here is the thing mate.  I'm not trying to win an argument.  I'm trying to be intellectually honest and not pretend to know things I don't.  I have never once claimed to know anything I can't possibly know.

Me saying that I find it more likely that the Bible is not the word of God is not me saying that it isn't the word of God.  You see the difference?

You are starting with a different goal in mind, and with all due respect, it clouds your judgment and your ability to remain unbiased in such discussions.

Lets try it another way.  How sure are you that the Bible is the word of God?  99%?  85%?...quantify it for me so I know what we are dealing with. 

Why is that only in Matthew and not the other 3?  That seems like a pretty major event.  And even if an earthquake explains the bodies being tossed from their grave, why does it say that they greeted old friends in some translations?

I'm still confused about Adam and Eve.  I don't know how you can believe in evolution and then assert that at some point in time there were only 2 human beings on the planet in the garden of eden free from sin with a talking snake..etc.

That does not make sense.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 02:17:16 pm by ginobli2311 »