Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2013, 01:27:15 pm »
Me saying that I find it more likely that the Bible is not the word of God is not me saying that it isn't the word of God.  You see the difference?
How is it intellectually honest to ignore all the evidence for the Bible's divine origin? I don't follow.


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Why is that only in Matthew and not the other 3?
I don't know.


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And even if an earthquake explains the bodies being tossed from their grave, why does it say that they greeted old friends in some translations?
Obviously, they are mistranslations.


Here is the passage in the original Greek:


Καὶ ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη [ἀπ’] ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο καὶ ἡ γῆ ἐσείσθη καὶ αἱ πέτραι ἐσχίσθησαν, καὶ τὰ μνημεῖα ἀνεῴχθησαν καὶ πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθησαν. - Matthew 27:51,52


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I don't know how you can believe in evolution and then assert that at some point in time there were only 2 human beings on the planet in the garden of eden free from sin with a talking snake..etc.
I don't follow. Does the theory of evolution say that God does not nor cannot exist?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2013, 02:24:53 pm »
Me saying that I find it more likely that the Bible is not the word of God is not me saying that it isn't the word of God.  You see the difference?
How is it intellectually honest to ignore all the evidence for the Bible's divine origin? I don't follow.


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Why is that only in Matthew and not the other 3?
I don't know.


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And even if an earthquake explains the bodies being tossed from their grave, why does it say that they greeted old friends in some translations?
Obviously, they are mistranslations.


Here is the passage in the original Greek:


Καὶ ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη [ἀπ’] ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο καὶ ἡ γῆ ἐσείσθη καὶ αἱ πέτραι ἐσχίσθησαν, καὶ τὰ μνημεῖα ἀνεῴχθησαν καὶ πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθησαν. - Matthew 27:51,52


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I don't know how you can believe in evolution and then assert that at some point in time there were only 2 human beings on the planet in the garden of eden free from sin with a talking snake..etc.
I don't follow. Does the theory of evolution say that God does not nor cannot exist?

Mate.  I have not ignored all the evidence.  It's why I continue to repeat that I remain somewhat agnostic on the subject...yet I lean towards it not being the word of God.  That is as intellectually honest as I can be.  I have researched the subject and listened to other experts on the subject from both sides.  I've thought about it in depth and discussed it with both the religious and non religious as well.  My conclusion is that it is more likely the writings of men and not divinely inspired.

Therefore I reject the "because it says so in the Bible" argument.  What I want to know...is how certain you are that it is the word of God.  Like 99% or something?  Please quantify it as best you can.

I never said evolution is proof that God does not exist.  Please stop creating false statements and arguing them as if it means something.  I simply said I don't see how the story of Adam and Eve fits in with the fact of evolution.  Do you believe at some point there were only 2 human beings?  I'd like you to offer a quick summary of your take on Adam and Eve and how you think it happened and how it fits in with evolution if you don't mind.

Back to the Bible.  So if something is obviously not an accurate translation, how do you know what has been accurately translated?  Couldn't that also mean that other key things didn't actually happen and have been mistranslated?  So who is the authority on what scripture means?

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2013, 05:55:50 pm »
Mate.  I have not ignored all the evidence.
I don't follow. You make this claim, yet, do not refute the preponderance of the evidence I shared with you here. Please expatiate.


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how certain you are that it is the word of God.  Like 99% or something?  Please quantify it as best you can.
I am 1000% certain it is the very Word of God Almighty.


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Do you believe at some point there were only 2 human beings?
Absolutely.


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I'd like you to offer a quick summary of your take on Adam and Eve and how you think it happened and how it fits in with evolution if you don't mind.
I take Genesis' account of Adam and Eve as historical fact. And, you're right, it absolutely doesn't fit with the myth that nonliving matter fortuitously just sprung to life, became single celled organisms and then transformed progressively into all the different kinds of life we see today.


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how do you know what has been accurately translated? [H]ow do you know what has been accurately translated?  Couldn't that also mean that other key things didn't actually happen and have been mistranslated?
(Bracket mine.)
All you need to do is study the ancient Bible manuscripts. It's all right there.


May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2013, 07:09:51 pm »
Mate.  I have not ignored all the evidence.
I don't follow. You make this claim, yet, do not refute the preponderance of the evidence I shared with you here. Please expatiate.


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how certain you are that it is the word of God.  Like 99% or something?  Please quantify it as best you can.
I am 1000% certain it is the very Word of God Almighty.


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Do you believe at some point there were only 2 human beings?
Absolutely.


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I'd like you to offer a quick summary of your take on Adam and Eve and how you think it happened and how it fits in with evolution if you don't mind.
I take Genesis' account of Adam and Eve as historical fact. And, you're right, it absolutely doesn't fit with the myth that nonliving matter fortuitously just sprung to life, became single celled organisms and then transformed progressively into all the different kinds of life we see today.


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how do you know what has been accurately translated? [H]ow do you know what has been accurately translated?  Couldn't that also mean that other key things didn't actually happen and have been mistranslated?
(Bracket mine.)
All you need to do is study the ancient Bible manuscripts. It's all right there.

This is what I was getting at mate.  The fact that you are 100% certain is proof of just how biased you truly are. 

I've enjoyed the discussion, but it can't go any further because you are claiming to know things you simply can't know.

Good night and enjoy the weekend.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2013, 07:13:47 pm »
This is what I was getting at mate.  The fact that you are 100% certain is proof of just how biased you truly are.
How does that follow? Does the certainty in my belief in gravity, electricity and magnetism also make me biased?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2013, 07:26:35 pm »
This is what I was getting at mate.  The fact that you are 100% certain is proof of just how biased you truly are.
How does that follow? Does the certainty in my belief in gravity, electricity and magnetism also make me biased?

What makes you absurdly biased is that you think the proof for testable and observable things like electricity and gravity are comparable to the proof of the "divinity" of the Bible.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2013, 08:04:22 pm »
This is what I was getting at mate.  The fact that you are 100% certain is proof of just how biased you truly are.
How does that follow? Does the certainty in my belief in gravity, electricity and magnetism also make me biased?

What makes you absurdly biased is that you think the proof for testable and observable things like electricity and gravity are comparable to the proof of the "divinity" of the Bible.
Are you insinuating the veridicality, accuracy and specificness of ancient Bible prophecies is not testable or observable? I don't follow ...
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2013, 03:26:58 pm »
This is what I was getting at mate.  The fact that you are 100% certain is proof of just how biased you truly are.
How does that follow? Does the certainty in my belief in gravity, electricity and magnetism also make me biased?

What makes you absurdly biased is that you think the proof for testable and observable things like electricity and gravity are comparable to the proof of the "divinity" of the Bible.
Are you insinuating the veridicality, accuracy and specificness of ancient Bible prophecies is not testable or observable? I don't follow ...

Are you insinuating that the level of evidence supporting the Bible to be the perfect word of God is on par with the level of evidence for electricity?  i don't follow...

And if you are, I honestly suggest you seek some type of help because you are so lost intellectually that you can't see heads from tails.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2013, 04:33:30 pm »
Are you insinuating that the level of evidence supporting the Bible to be the perfect word of God is on par with the level of evidence for electricity?
See for yourself.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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ginobli2311

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2013, 04:51:20 pm »
Are you insinuating that the level of evidence supporting the Bible to be the perfect word of God is on par with the level of evidence for electricity?
See for yourself.

I honestly hope you are trolling at this point.  Is that supposed to be proof of something? 

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2013, 07:08:19 pm »
Are you insinuating that the level of evidence supporting the Bible to be the perfect word of God is on par with the level of evidence for electricity?
See for yourself.

I honestly hope you are trolling at this point.  Is that supposed to be proof of something?
Accurately predicting dozens and dozens of specific events centuries in advance is a common human ability? What planet are you on? :)
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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peanutaxis

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2013, 02:12:45 am »


See for yourself.

It's not hard to make predictions come true when you just make shit up and copy flagrantly from previous texts. Which the gospel writers did.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2013, 09:27:00 am »


See for yourself.

It's not hard to make predictions come true when you just make shit up and copy flagrantly from previous texts. Which the gospel writers did.
Argumentum assertio. “That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”.
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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peanutaxis

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2013, 07:34:16 pm »

Argumentum assertio. “That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”.

Oh I completely agree. Like the complete lack of evidence for god. There's not even a case to respond to.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Does free will exist in William Lane Craig's universe?
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2013, 01:35:42 am »

Argumentum assertio. “That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”.

Oh I completely agree. Like the complete lack of evidence for god. There's not even a case to respond to.

Let's fix that then, shall we? Here is a completely irrefutable case for God's necessary existence. I'll be laying it out across several posts from essays I've written elsewhere:

Let's get started then:

“Ex nihilo nihil fit.” In other words, something can't come from nothing. (Not Hawking’s or Krauss’ mendacious pseudo-definition of “nothing” (“The Grand Design”/ ”A Universe From Nothing“) but the concept that describes the absence of anything; the state of nonexistence: http://bit.ly/14Ff2hg) If it could, why doesn't everything or anything? Why aren't dinosaurs, for instance, popping out of thin air, devouring everyone in sight? Why aren't we afraid of elephants suddenly popping into existence and crushing us as they fall from the sky? If nothing can in fact produce something why would it discriminate? Conspicuously, then, such an argument is laid bare as nothing more than fallacious special pleading.   


 Furthermore, from the whole of human experience, knowledge, wisdom, empiricism and discovery we’ve distilled other self-evident, irrefragable truths such as:   

  - A posteriori causality
  - Being does not arise from nonbeing
  - Whatever begins to exist has a cause
  - Information does not spring from chaos
  - Fine-tuning does not emanate from randomness 


Given these unshakable abecedarian truths, the natural questions that follow are, “Where did the universe come from 13.70 billion years ago?” and “What caused it to come into existence in the first place?” Whatever this cause is, it must possess certain requisite properties.


Therefore -   


(1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.   
(2) The space-time universe began to exist 13.70 billion years ago.   
(3) Therefore, the space-time universe has a cause.   


(4) The cause of the universe is a transcendent, beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging, omnipotent good personal being. 
(5) A transcendent, beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging, omnipotent good personal being is the definition of God.
(6) Therefore, God caused the universe to exist 13.70 billion years ago.   



 Now, let’s take a closer look at each of the premisses of this elegant syllogism. First and foremost, this cause must itself be uncaused. Why? Because an infinite regress of causes has no basis in reality; it can’t be turtles all the way down. (Lookup “Hilbert's Grand Hotel” if you're interested in a more in-depth analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2W2vduP22Q)

Second, this uncaused cause must transcend space-time because it itself created space-time. It is therefore, spaceless.   

Third, since this uncaused cause exists beyond space and time it is must be a non-physical or immaterial cause. Why? Because physical things exist only in space – they have dimensions.   

Fourth, this uncaused cause must necessarily also be timeless for the simple fact that it itself doesn't exist in space-time.

Fifth, it must also be changeless. As I'm sure you're well aware, all matter exists in a state of constant flux. This is especially apparent at the atomic level. Since this uncaused cause is immaterial it is not subject to the same forces that affect matter, therefore, it is unchanging.   

Sixth, this uncaused cause is obviously unimaginably powerful, if not omnipotent, for it brought matter, energy, space and time into existence completely on its own.


So, to sum up, whatever it is that caused the universe to come into existence 13.70 billion years ago it must be beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging and omnipotent.     



But we're not done for there are two more properties of this uncaused cause that we can deduce from what we observe of the universe. Before we get to these, though, we first need to take a closer look at cause and effect. Here's what I mean: if a cause is sufficient to produce it's effect then the effect must also be present. The two are joined at the hip, so to speak; you can't have one without the other.


Let me borrow from an illustration to make this clearer. “Suppose that the cause of water’s freezing is the temperature’s being below 0°C. If the temperature were below 0°C from eternity past, then any water that was around would be frozen from eternity. It would be impossible for the water to just begin to freeze a finite time ago. Once the cause is given, the effect must be given as well.” (http://bit.ly/WQtgZY)


The issue is, if we have in fact a timeless, transcendent cause why isn't the effect permanent as well? In other words, if this timeless, transcendent cause actually brought the universe into being, why hasn't the universe always been? How can a cause be eternal but its effect commence a finite time ago? We know the universe is about 13.70 billion years old but we've also deduced that whatever caused the universe must be transcendent and timeless.

The only way this is possible is if this timeless, transcendent, uncaused cause were also a free agent – a being with free will who can act of its own volition. As we all know, free will is the hallmark of personhood.   

So here we arrive at this uncaused cause of the universe 13.70 billion years ago that is beginningless, spaceless, immaterial, timeless, unchanging, omnipotent and personal being who is all good and all loving: http://bit.ly/15mmyNx.

This is the very definition - of God :)   
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17