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Leibnizian Cosmological Argument

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Re: An Unembodied Mind?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2013, 08:33:34 pm »
I don't want you to get me wrong, I appreciate your views.

Frankly and Honestly, I've been trying to evaluate whether or not everything needs a cause myself. We have no example of anything that does not need a cause but that doesn't prove it doesn't exist. I would also say that a timeless, immaterial being we know as God would not need a cause. ( Dr. Craig have made the argument for that)

It seems to me everything (else) needs a cause. Whether this follows from reason I cannot not say because without the idea of "causation" we would not be able to make sense of the world, quite possibly we might not be able to reason without the idea "something cannot come from nothing", and that "everything that begins to exist has a cause". That's why it seems to be a Priori truth, like P implies Q, P, therefore Q. I don't know that it is provable or disprovable.

When it comes to the Universe's cause, I admit we have no experience with causation from absolutely nothing, but maybe because it's not possible! It seems logically and consistent to think that there is a cause and somewhere at the beginning of causation there must be a causeless cause.

My argument is that the need for causation is more probable given ALL of the data we have then that there is no need for a cause. Why let go of something that has enabled so much in science and reason just to avoid God? As Dr. Craig said that's a very large intellectual price tag...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 08:39:07 pm by 111raybartlett »

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philtime

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Re: An Unembodied Mind?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2013, 09:04:01 am »
Actually, I don't need to let go of anything in my mind. I will gladly acknowledge that our experience of physical objects in space and time appear to be causally governed. But making metaphysical generalizations from experience to much beyond experience is something I can't personally bring myself to do.

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Re: An Unembodied Mind?
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 11:26:12 pm »
Philtime,
Okay, that's an interesting objection, that is, why think we can make the metaphysical generalization that events, beginnings of existence need a cause from our physical experience?

     First I'd say that, we can say that about the beginning of the universe because the universe is a physical object, existing in space and time. So our experience that spatial-temporal events needs causes does apply. When the universe began to exist it was a physical event so all of our experience says it needs a cause. To say it does not need a cause would be making what Dr. Craig calls the taxi cab fallicy. Where we hold to the causal principal for all the events back through time but drop it at the big bang saying this physical event does not need a cause.
     I will concede that we have no experience about whether or not metaphysical events need a cause. So a provable metaphysical generalization may not be possible from our experience or from reason but it is not needed for the argument.
Also note that any argument attempting to prove the causal principal is less obvious then the principal itself, which makes it seem as I stated before it seems to be a 'metaphysical first principal' as Dr. Craig called it in his refutation of Grunbaum's same objection as you have made. It seems like it is a properly basic belief, that is the principal of causality. And without any good reason (philosophical or  from experience) to deny it it seems logical and more reasonable to hold to that principal.

I understand it's not definitive but it is more reasonable. I do wonder if you hold the causal principal at arms lenth not for interlectual reasons but for emotional reasons about God? But I don't expect an answer with regards to that, I just brought it up as food for thought. You can forget that remark if it makes this conversation uncomfortable.

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Rob Heusdens

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Re: An Unembodied Mind?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2014, 03:34:34 pm »
Thank you! Anyone else?
How do we know an unembodied mind can cause anything?

We don't know.  There is no evidence that a mind can exist without a brain...and no evidence that such a mind can cause anything.

Well that's exactly what these arguments show.  There's also no reason to think that a mind cannot exist without a brain.  That seems like carbon chauvinism to me.  As to causing things, that's again what the arguments about and it's philosophically possible: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/investigating-interaction-problem-6022463.0.html.

Minds exist like music. You can put in on your harddrive or on a CD. Perhaps we can even create a mind working on different hardware then brain tissue.

But a mind can not exist WITHOUT any physical layer. Neither as music (or information) can.

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Language-Gamer

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Re: An Unembodied Mind?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2014, 04:57:26 pm »
why think that?
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie
And that they love to see us all go to prison or die
Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"
But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

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Rob Heusdens

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Re: An Unembodied Mind?
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2014, 05:16:04 pm »

When it comes to the Universe's cause, I admit we have no experience with causation from absolutely nothing, but maybe because it's not possible! It seems logically and consistent to think that there is a cause and somewhere at the beginning of causation there must be a causeless cause.


What is wrong with the cause of the universe is a physical cause, as would be arguably much more sensible.

For instance like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hADOY0TzLic