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Craig vs Krauss

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pat1911

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Re: Nothing
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2018, 12:08:02 pm »

If someone argues that God is without cause...then there is no reason why something else out there can't also be without cause.  And the notion that it has to be a mind that is outside time and space just cracks me up.  On what basis is someone making such claim?

Nothing doesn't exist, literally. The fact we have a word for "it" is paradox. But we need to be able to talk about non-existence without a long diatribe of 'not anything that could be or is or was'.

God can exist causeless, but other entities that can be known cannot exist causeless as it then is in conflict with the Uncaused-cause. Only one thing can occupy that space. If other causeless entities can exist, they cannot be known because once they are known, they have 'caused'. Knowledge of 'it's existence to be specific, which causes a contradiction with THE Uncaused-cause.

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jayceeii

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Re: Nothing
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2020, 08:36:45 am »
There are two sources of knowledge: observation, and logic. We don't need to observe nothingness to know...
Nope. This is so misguided. All of our logic comes from implicit knowledge of the macroscopic world in which we evolved. And it works so well for so many things that philosophers have elevated it to a 'metaphysical' level. Unfortunately this has a doubly bad effect. Firstly, people/philosophers don't even realize or accept that our logical intuitions come from only the macroscopic world, and secondly the elevation of this logic to a metaphysical level shields it from empirical enquiry.
Indeed, the philosophers can be found chasing false abstractions, to be talking about nothing real. The entire theory of Molinism is this way, as is found by seeking real world examples of the counterfactuals instead of allowing this to remain an abstract (and unexplained) concept. “Bring me more examples,” is not what philosophers wish to hear.

Existentialism is certainly this way, in all its varieties. The philosophy of ethics is also this way, which is why this philosophy has almost no influence on the real world. The mind can take leaps into itself, increasingly ignoring the external realm, particularly its real others. The worldview of most is ill-met by the actual world, ideas without vitality.