Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2019, 06:02:18 pm »

It's all pretty simple really. For instance, was Adam's body a soul before Jehovah God infused it with life energy or after? (cf. Genesis 7:22; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
Yes, so now I understand you equate the body with the soul, not believing that there is a spiritual soul that is separable from the body and with parts that religion hasn’t described.

Here, let me fix your Strawman-


"Yes, so now I understand you equate the body with it's life force as the soul not just the body itself since a dead body is not a soul, not believing that there is a spiritual soul that is separable from the body and with parts that religion hasn’t described."


Glad I could help :)


(Btw, you do know you can just ask if there's anything about my position you don't understand, right? :) )
In particular, what has God been doing with your individual “life force,” between the time that you die and the expected mass resurrection? Or are you saying you do not have an individual life force, that God will simply breathe into your body and you will reappear, with memories, tendencies, and desires intact? What “stored” these desires? I've been asking you many specific questions, none of which you have answered. Here explain the mechanism of the life force leaving the body then being restored, with memories intact. If you cannot explain this, then explain why your Bible does not explain it. It would seem those you accept as knowers or cognoscenti, gave little evidence of their qualifications, ignoring basic questions.

Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit (נְשָׁמָה) simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 06:39:27 pm by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

1

jayceeii

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2019, 06:23:48 pm »
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
Again, you are attempting to speak as an authority, proposing a mechanism for where memories would be stored that Jesus did not give! From my perspective the reply is a little humorous, for I have watched the Holy Spirit stepping in to provide “aid” to human thoughts and emotions, as the Christians also testify occurs when they say the Holy Spirit “lives in them.” The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation. You say it is temporary, but really if God is storing everything, “you” no longer exist but in His Mind, which is not real existence.

So answer me this too, if God is going to store all your memories, what about the bad memories? Is He going to restore only good memories, and if so how would you say individuality and free choice have been maintained? What about your negative tendencies? Is God going to obliterate those, and if so why did He allow them in the first place in your current body? You are standing all alone in Christendom with a theory of God storing people in His Mind at death, with which few other Christians would agree.

In fact it appears you generated this theory only in response to my assertions, and that it is not something you know or ever thought about before. It looks like you are attempting to oppose me, for the sake of opposition. This means your mind is writing a story from imagination, not from reality.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2019, 06:55:14 pm »
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
I have watched the Holy Spirit stepping in to provide “aid” to human thoughts and emotions.

Prove it.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

3

Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2019, 06:56:39 pm »
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.

The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

4

Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2019, 07:06:00 pm »
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

What else can I clarify for you? :)
Quote
So answer me this too, if God is going to store all your memories, what about the bad memories? Is He going to restore only good memories?

Why wouldn't God restore all their memories?

Quote
What about your negative tendencies? Is God going to obliterate those, and if so why did He allow them in the first place in your current body?


Such negative tendencies are the result of the sin we've all inherited from our very first parents, Adam and Eve. (cf. Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12; 7:14-25) Since everything God does is perfect all who are re-created will be free from all of its deleterious effects.

Quote
You are standing all alone in Christendom with a theory of God storing people in His Mind at death, with which few other Christians would agree.

As I've already demonstrated with the Scriptures, this is what Christ taught and all Christians align with Christ's teachings.


« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 07:09:52 pm by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

5

jayceeii

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2019, 06:49:21 am »
I have watched the Holy Spirit stepping in to provide “aid” to human thoughts and emotions.
Prove it.
There's no need to prove it, for the Christians celebrate it continuously. If they rejoice that the Holy Spirit “lives in them,” why should it be remarkable this can be observed by outsiders? Can't you see it? Or are you a Christian who says the Holy Spirit does not live in you? This would be quite a novelty! You would then be admitting you receive no guidance from the Holy Spirit, where every other Christian is saying Jesus has indeed sent “the comforter,” who guides them inwardly from God's Will.

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jayceeii

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2019, 06:57:56 am »
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
You're begging the question, since this is the controversy between us. I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date. The fact is you do not really know what death is. You're thinking of a dead body, but you do not know what happened to the person inside the body. It is invalid to attempt to make reference to “common knowledge” about death, when this does not exist. Dead bodies are seen, not the inner processes.

You are also unable to provide scriptural support for your ideas, but appear to be making them up as you go along. What you have in the Bible is a collection of poetic verses, open to varied interpretations. No one else has ever stated your theory of “storage by Mind,” but also no one else has ever been challenged to find a solid teaching about the soul in the Bible. It can't be done, so you grasp at straws.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 07:04:34 am by jayceeii »

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jayceeii

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2019, 07:34:34 am »
Quote
So answer me this too, if God is going to store all your memories, what about the bad memories? Is He going to restore only good memories?

Why wouldn't God restore all their memories?

Quote
What about your negative tendencies? Is God going to obliterate those, and if so why did He allow them in the first place in your current body?


Such negative tendencies are the result of the sin we've all inherited from our very first parents, Adam and Eve. (cf. Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12; 7:14-25) Since everything God does is perfect all who are re-created will be free from all of its deleterious effects.

Quote
You are standing all alone in Christendom with a theory of God storing people in His Mind at death, with which few other Christians would agree.

As I've already demonstrated with the Scriptures, this is what Christ taught and all Christians align with Christ's teachings.
mm: Why wouldn't God restore all their memories?

jc: Perhaps you are very young or have had no bad experiences, but I think it is more likely you are opposing me only for the sake of opposition, and failing to think realistically about the tragedies in life.  You are here arguing that people should remember all of their suffering in clear detail, no matter how painful or horrible. I'd have thought that to be a type of hell, and God's mercy would be in forgetting.

mm: Such negative tendencies are the result of the sin we've all inherited from our very first parents, Adam and Eve. (cf. Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12; 7:14-25) Since everything God does is perfect all who are re-created will be free from all of its deleterious effects.

jc: Ah, so it is your theory the negative tendencies will not be restored. The mechanism of purification you are proposing is that God will remember all aspects about the personality, but will reinstate the personality after a period of annihilation without its negative side. I'd call this the “magic wand effect.”

Yet, this is indeed what Christians expect, in varied ways. Some pray to God, “Purify me,” and are sure God will be compelled to respond to such an earnest and holy plea! You'll have to admit you have only poetry to back up your story, and though I'd shudder at the “annihilation” part, who am I to stand in the way of any human attaining purity? If you want purity, though, why don't you try to get it right now? Are you claiming this is an additional flaw of the fall, that you not only do not want purity, but rejoice in your negative tendencies (wickedness)? Yet Christianity presents no mechanisms for seeking purity.

mm: As I've already demonstrated with the Scriptures, this is what Christ taught and all Christians align with Christ's teachings.

jc: You have not done so! You said Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected, but then added your private interpretation not shared by other Christians, that, “In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated.” I've asked a question no one asked before, and your mind is operating extempore, writing a story by imagination while motivated for opposition. If this is not so, show me other places this theory exists.

The issue of the soul has been a gray area in Christianity, and no one has scrutinized it because no one really cares. This is a proof of what I've said, if the soul exists men feel no living connection to it. You obviously feel none, eager to deny it and submit to annihilation of your being! Further here, it can be shown each Christian harbors his own unique brand of Christianity, dissimilar in fine points to the others. On a macro scale the arguing sects form, each convinced they alone are aligned with Christ.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2019, 08:27:06 am »
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date.

I don't say anything since I didn't author the Bible.

That being the case, why should anyone accept you as a better authority than Jehovah God, our Creator?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2019, 08:39:34 am »

jc: Perhaps you are very young or have had no bad experiences, but I think it is more likely you are opposing me only for the sake of opposition, and failing to think realistically about the tragedies in life.  You are here arguing that people should remember all of their suffering in clear detail, no matter how painful or horrible. I'd have thought that to be a type of hell, and God's mercy would be in forgetting.

You misunderstand since a memory can be divorced from the pain experienced. Just ask mothers who've given birth naturally.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

10

Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2019, 08:54:07 am »
jc: Ah, so it is your theory the negative tendencies will not be restored. The mechanism of purification you are proposing is that God will remember all aspects about the personality, but will reinstate the personality after a period of annihilation without its negative side.

No, not theory, fact:

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." -1 Corinthians 15:22

Christ "gave himself for our sins so that he might rescue us from the present wicked system of things." -Galatians 1:4

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

"For if by the trespass of the one man [Adam] death ruled as king through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness . .. through the one person, Jesus Christ!" -Romans 5:17 (Bracket mine.)

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23

"Just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned . . . so too through one act of justification [Christ's ransom sacrifice] the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person [Christ Jesus] many will be made righteous." -Romans 5:12, 18, 19 (Brackets mine.)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 09:35:28 am by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

11

Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2019, 09:12:43 am »

jc: You said Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected, but then added your private interpretation not shared by other Christians, that, “In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated.”


On the subject of the Koine terms utilized to describe a burial place or tomb, A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament (1932, Vol. V, p. 87) states: “Taphos (grave) presents the notion of burial (thapto, to bury) as in Matt. 23:27, mnemeion (from mnaomai, mimnesko, to remind) is a memorial (sepulchre as a monument).” Related to mne·meiʹon is the word mneʹma, which has a corresponding meaning, referring also to “a memorial or record of a thing or a dead person, then a sepulchral monument, and hence a tomb.”​—Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 2, p. 173.

Notably, inscriptions on the tombs of Israelite origin are incredibly rare and, when discovered, typically only have the name. The exceptional kings of Judah left absolutely no extraordinary monuments with their praises and exploits etched thereon, as did the kings of different nations. Accordingly this makes indisputable that the priority of faithful men of ancient eras was that their name remain in the “book of remembrance” discussed at Malachi 3:16.​—cf Ecclesiastes 7:1.

Taking into consideration the foundational concept of commemoration tied to mne·meiʹon, the usage of this expression (and not taʹphos) at John 5:28 concerning the resurrection of “all those in the memorial tombs” is especially apt and contrasts dramatically with the notion of total repudiation as well as effacement from all memory as depicted by Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28; 23:33; Mark 9:43) The emphasis placed on burial by the Hebrews is an indication of their concern that they be remembered, principally by Jehovah God in whom they had faith as “the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:1, 2, 6)

« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 09:16:56 am by Maxximiliann »
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2019, 09:30:27 am »
I have watched the Holy Spirit stepping in to provide “aid” to human thoughts and emotions.
Prove it.
There's no need to prove it,

"That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

As such, consider your claims dismissed.
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

13

Maxximiliann

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2019, 09:32:25 am »
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
I say the soul separates from the body at death.

God promised Adam and Eve, “As for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:17)

In turn Satan disaffirmed, “YOU positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:4)

Who do you believe? Jehovah God or Satan?

Are Adam and Eve dead or alive?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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jayceeii

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2019, 01:34:25 pm »
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date.
I don't say anything since I didn't author the Bible.

That being the case, why should anyone accept you as a better authority than Jehovah God, our Creator?
No, you have said exactly this. Let me quote your original words, that you've been re-quoting but seem to forget at your convenience. If I have not summarized your position accurately, please supply such a summary.
Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)

If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)

So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At  Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)

Your argument devolves, as I've stated before, into saying the Bible appeared from the Holy Spirit wielding humans as blind instruments, utterly devoid of knowledge themselves. It was human hands that authored the Bible, not God directly. This appears to be a huge area of unclarity in your thinking, though you share this unclarity with Christians generally. You are also wildly incorrect to presume I am attempting to persuade you that I am a better authority than those authoring the Bible, because I see things they didn't see and ask questions they didn't ask. For me it's just a boring Sunday afternoon where I didn't go to church, which like Blake wrote, appear to be dark unhappy dens of some kind.