Alter2Ego

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #75 on: October 05, 2019, 09:27:00 pm »
The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.

The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
Maxximiliann:

Excellent rhetorical question.  There is scriptural support for annihilation.  A dead person does not have a personality since, according to scripture, someone who is dead no longer exists.
The human being does long for annihilation, and this explains the popularity of Buddhism and Hinduism. In Christianity it is less explicit, and it is not generally preached that the adherents will be annihilated completely (perhaps to be stored in God’s Mind), prior to going to Heaven. If this were preached the religion will lose popularity.
jayceeii:

Annihilation is explicitly indicated in throughout the Judeo-Christian Bible.  Throughout the Greek Scriptures aka New Testament, Jesus' disciples wrote of their hope of resurrection from the dead.  Below is one such example:

"I have a hope in God, which these men themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection, both of the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15 -- Christian Standard Bible)

Nowhere within scripture is there anything resembling the suggestion of a soul literally leaving the dead body that then continues to live in the "spirit realm."

Alter2Ego


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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

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Alter2Ego

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #76 on: October 05, 2019, 10:05:07 pm »
Jayceeii:

There is no scriptural support for your belief that, to quote you: "the soul separates from the body at death."  According to scripture, the soul is the very same person who died.  I will provide scripture to support what I just stated after I hear back from you.
Indeed, the neither the Bible nor any other religious text contains a clear teaching about the soul***. Lay Christians, at least in the Lutheran church as I know from experience, do think about the soul as distinct from the body at times, but at other times they expect their bodies to be raised after Judgment. The reason for this ambivalence is that the minds are not experienced in spiritual realities, even to know themselves, to think clearly about this most vital of all topics. Mm’s theory is that the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies. This is not church doctrine, but something he was making up on the fly in response to some of my challenges. Do you agree with mm’s theory or do you have another of your own, as to how a dead personality can be restored?

In general people who don’t mind “handing off” their personalities to God or to annihilation, are not “awake” in the sense of valuing their own personal presence.
Jayceeii:

Your assertion that the Bible does not contain "a clear teaching about the soul" is incorrect.  In both the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and the Greek Scriptures (New Testament), Almighty God informs the reader that the soul dies and that at death, all consciousness cease.  Notice scriptural evidence below:

THE SOUL DIES:
"Behold. all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4 -- King James Bible)


NOTHING CONSCIOUSLY SURVIVES ONE'S DEATH:
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- English Standard Version)


QUESTION #1 TO JAYCEEII:  According to Ezekiel 18:4, the soul can sin, and as a result, the soul is capable of dying."  TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #2 TO JAYCEEII:  According to Ecclesiastes 9:5, does a person retain their personality after they have died?"  YES or NO?

Alter2Ego


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Alter2Ego

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2019, 10:42:30 pm »
You're begging the question, since this is the controversy between us. I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date. The fact is you do not really know what death is. You're thinking of a dead body, but you do not know what happened to the person inside the body. It is invalid to attempt to make reference to “common knowledge” about death, when this does not exist. Dead bodies are seen, not the inner processes.
jayceeii:

There is no scriptural support for your belief that, to quote you: "the soul separates from the body at death."  According to scripture, the soul is the very same person who died.  I will provide scripture to support what I just stated after I hear back from you.
Indeed, the neither the Bible nor any other religious text contains a clear teaching about the soul. Lay Christians, at least in the Lutheran church as I know from experience, do think about the soul as distinct from the body at times, but at other times they expect their bodies to be raised after Judgment. The reason for this ambivalence is that the minds are not experienced in spiritual realities, even to know themselves, to think clearly about this most vital of all topics. Mm’s theory is that the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies. This is not church doctrine, but something he was making up on the fly in response to some of my challenges. Do you agree with mm’s theory or do you have another of your own, as to how a dead personality can be restored?

In general people who don’t mind “handing off” their personalities to God or to annihilation, are not “awake” in the sense of valuing their own personal presence.
jayceeii:

Yes, I agree with Maxximiliann that "the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies."  And let me make it clear that it is not mere theory but is based upon scripture.  Recall what Job stated when he begged the Almighty to end his life, due to his terrible suffering at Satan's hand. Notice below what he ask God to do:

"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!"  (Job 14:13 -- New International Version)


QUESTION #3 TO JAYCEEII:  Job asked God to not leave him in the grave but to instead remember him (resurrection).  Upon being resurrected back to life, how do you expect anyone (including Job) would be recognizable to friends and family if God did not have the ability to retain memory of each of our personality and appearance, in order to resurrect an accurate depiction of the person who had died?

I look forward to your response to my questions.


Alter2Ego


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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

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jayceeii

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Re: Merely one perfect physical human life?
« Reply #78 on: October 26, 2019, 02:07:46 pm »
Yes, I agree with Maxximiliann that "the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies."  And let me make it clear that it is not mere theory but is based upon scripture.  Recall what Job stated when he begged the Almighty to end his life, due to his terrible suffering at Satan's hand. Notice below what he ask God to do:

"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!"  (Job 14:13 -- New International Version)

QUESTION #3 TO JAYCEEII:  Job asked God to not leave him in the grave but to instead remember him (resurrection).  Upon being resurrected back to life, how do you expect anyone (including Job) would be recognizable to friends and family if God did not have the ability to retain memory of each of our personality and appearance, in order to resurrect an accurate depiction of the person who had died?

I look forward to your response to my questions.

Alter2Ego
ae: Yes, I agree with Maxximiliann that "the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies." 

jc: Strangely, you are in a position fit to destroy Christianity utterly, having traced the logic of the Bible to its ugly roots. Instead you staunchly defend it, unable to rise above words you have seen and the big movements among ignorant creatures these spawned. Think about it this way, why isn’t your theory trumpeted by every preacher to attract new converts? Think about a Christianity consistent with your observations. The new convert comes. The preacher greets him gladly, saying, “Welcome to the religion of annihilation in God’s Mind. He’s going to suck you up and spit you back out, like irrigation for His sinuses. Don’t think about immortality, God is all. He’ll tuck you back in His underarm.”

ae: And let me make it clear that it is not mere theory but is based upon scripture. 

jc: Finally someone found the Bad News in the Bible, although it’s been touted as “Good News for Modern Man.” You can ask this question too, if God is going to retain people in His memory, and restore them but without their negative tendencies, why did He not bestow them without negative tendencies to begin with? And how could God endure the negative tendencies of people in Himself? And if these negative tendencies are stripped away, how can you say it is the same person? Men would die if they did not have their greed.

ae: Recall what Job stated when he begged the Almighty to end his life, due to his terrible suffering at Satan's hand.

jc: Ha, the major point of the Book of Job is that Job needed to beg from God since any possible friends denied him. That book sets forth the whole ugly scene of capitalism, that you’d better pray to God for help since the neighbor never will, even Christians sitting in the same pews. All the help Job needed was beside him, in these friends that denied him.

ae: Notice below what he ask God to do:

"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!"  (Job 14:13 -- New International Version)

jc: I’ve thought about this too, for instance it would be a lot easier for me simply to appear after the Judgment, rather than to wait tediously monitoring it. If Job wanted to wait, it does not imply he was wanting to be absorbed. He wanted just to be set aside.

ae: QUESTION #3 TO JAYCEEII:  Job asked God to not leave him in the grave but to instead remember him (resurrection). 

jc: Ha, this is a shallow interpretation of this word “remember,” whereas among living persons this merely means to look at a person again, as they continue their existence. In general blissful persons wish to remain dead as short a time as possible, since they have so much fun in embodiment. Job was in a dark era, and seems to have asked for a break.

ae: Upon being resurrected back to life, how do you expect anyone (including Job) would be recognizable to friends and family if God did not have the ability to retain memory of each of our personality and appearance, in order to resurrect an accurate depiction of the person who had died?

jc: There’s another simple system, not in the Bible or anywhere else, God created the souls separate from Himself and grants them eternal existence. Unfortunately this means the rising souls who have negative traits, retain these traits. If all the people were wise, they would not want to see these unwise people again, and if those unwise people were wise they wouldn’t want to see themselves again. Generally this is called weakness and corruption in the souls, the Original Sin from the Bible. Yet I think the wise have good traits, and these abide with them eternally, their friends grateful to meet them any time.

Your argument has one other flaw I could mention, that you’re forgetting the friends would also need God to restore their ability to recognize you. Your argument presumes your friends retain an ability to recognize you while you have sacrificed your entire being to be enfolded in God again. Instead God reigns over all, your friends as well as yourself.

ae: I look forward to your response to my questions.

jc: As you remain a staunch defender of the shoddy Bible, you do not really look forward to my responses. Instead, you give God the credit, that as He enfolds you entirely into Himself as you crave, He will restore you to a state where you feel as if you look forward to the responses to my questions. In other words, I interact only with God, not with you.