faithfulserver

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 10:46:11 pm »
If God elected those that freely chose to follow him, then they are not elected. For there to be a select few that are elected, there cannot be salvation open to all.
They are elected because God foreknew their free choice that's why He elected them. Salvation is open to all, but sadly only a few accept Him to be elected.

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False Entity

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 11:05:55 pm »
So, did God elect us before we made the choice or afterwards?

There's a difference between God knowing something, and God acting upon something.

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faithfulserver

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 11:19:43 pm »
So, did God elect us before we made the choice or afterwards?

There's a difference between God knowing something, and God acting upon something.
God being outside of time and space sees all things instantly so He sees all free choices and elects on that basis.

God acts to declare the elect because He foreknows who receives Him.

Pretty simple actually.

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Imperfect SBG

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2013, 06:26:12 am »
James 2:14-25,

'14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?'

While not placing primary emphasis on works, it seems to me as if James is citing the importance of both faith and works in tandem.
Let us consider Judas Iscariot, a man who walked with Jesus, prayed with Jesus, fellowshipped with His people, presumably teaching and healing, performing miracles in the name of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:1

'Jesus called together his twelve disciples. He gave them the power to force out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and sickness...'

Was Judas Iscariot covered in salvation? After he betrayed Jesus and took his own life, was he still covered in salvation?



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faithfulserver

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2013, 04:11:48 pm »
James 2:14-25,

'14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Faith without works is dead, referring to it being ineffective or unproductive, but the person, nonetheless, is saved, for he has eternal life and believed in God's only begotten Son for forgiveness of sins and received eternal life.

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18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?'
Faith without works will be unrewarded, but faith with works will be rewarded. Sum it up by saying "faith was completed by his works" which does not say faith without works sends one to perdition. Faith is followed by works, not the other way around. Why was Abraham saved? Because he "believed God" not because he worked for it. A person is justified by faith for eternal life and would further be justified by his works unto rewards. Rahab was justified by her faith. Her works that followed flow from that faith. People misuse these Scriptures all the time, but James, obviously, is talking about works that flow from faith rather than receiving initial salvation or keeping oneself saved by works. What pride man has! No man has that power, for God is infinitely greater than us. Only God can keep His elect, and to be one of His elect you would need to accept this God and not the one you worship now which saves by works like Roman Catholics, Muslims, Hindus and Mormons teach.

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While not placing primary emphasis on works, it seems to me as if James is citing the importance of both faith and works in tandem.
Let us consider Judas Iscariot, a man who walked with Jesus, prayed with Jesus, fellowshipped with His people, presumably teaching and healing, performing miracles in the name of Jesus Christ.
The reason James doesn't place primary emphasis on works is because works can't save you. All it can do is reward you. Whereas faith, as contrasted from works, can save you, that is, give eternal life. Take Judas Iscariot who performed many works but was still not saved. It's because works cannot redeem you for forgiveness of sins to receive eternal life and be called a child of God.

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Matthew 10:1

'Jesus called together his twelve disciples. He gave them the power to force out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and sickness...'

Was Judas Iscariot covered in salvation? After he betrayed Jesus and took his own life, was he still covered in salvation?
Judas was never saved to begin with. Calling a disciple, the person must receive it by faith. Who can say the exact moment when the 11 Apostles were actually saved and given a new life. Was it after Jesus' first speech or 10th speech? (Salvation is not irresistibly imposed as taught by the heresy of Calvinism). Suicide is the surest way to Hell so Judas was not saved and never was, for salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast. Suicide is a work that flows from the evil spirit so Judas never had life. John 10.28 is clear those who were saved "they shall never perish". A false Christ will teach otherwise.

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Imperfect SBG

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 06:48:16 am »
Interesting...

Would you assert, then, that one who believes in Jesus is free to live a life of their own choosing, so long as they never stop believing in Him? That even though the demons believe in the name of the Lord, and they have faith in His promises - which for us leads to hope and salvation, and for them it is their greatest fear - they are covered in salvation for believing in Jesus?

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The first command to obey, not a work, is to accept what Jesus did on the cross.

I do not believe works are what saves you - only Jesus' sacrifice on the cross can do that.

All throughout Scripture, God demonstrates His love for us - I believe we are to follow His example.

James 1:22

'Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.'

4:17

'Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.'

As you already know, sin separates us from God. I agree the bible allows for backsliding, but there are numerous warnings against living blatant sin-filled lives.

Jesus' message to us when He walked the earth was "...'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'"

What would be the fate of those who believed in Jesus but did not repent?

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faithfulserver

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 12:04:45 pm »
Interesting...

Would you assert, then, that one who believes in Jesus is free to live a life of their own choosing, so long as they never stop believing in Him? That even though the demons believe in the name of the Lord, and they have faith in His promises - which for us leads to hope and salvation, and for them it is their greatest fear - they are covered in salvation for believing in Jesus?
You are still speaking of a false Christ, a wrong Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible asserts a person who gives their life to Christ is giving their life to the God who keeps since we couldn't keep ourselves saved. Do you see the pride and self-aggrandizing (misplaced) nature of always having an out-clause. That is not truly entering into a relationship with Jesus. Demons have no access to the cross of salvation or any means by which to be saved. The reason a Christian is saved is because he came to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. Knowing Jesus is God and receiving what He did for us are two different things.

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I do not believe works are what saves you - only Jesus' sacrifice on the cross can do that.

All throughout Scripture, God demonstrates His love for us - I believe we are to follow His example.

James 1:22

'Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.'

4:17

'Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.'

As you already know, sin separates us from God. I agree the bible allows for backsliding, but there are numerous warnings against living blatant sin-filled lives.

Jesus' message to us when He walked the earth was "...'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'"

What would be the fate of those who believed in Jesus but did not repent?
When you quote James 1.22 "Do what it says" to try to bolster your belief that if you don't do what it says after already being saved you can lose salvation, you are altering the meaning of this verse and are believing in the lie held by all other religions of salvation by works which is what you boast of. James 1.22, rather, is affirming to believers who already have eternal life to walk therein and that there are consequences. The consequence, of course, is not loss of life, but loss of rewards.

Every believer who has ever lived has subsequently sinned and been selfish even though they were saved. They don't go to Hell because they sinned though they do lose rewards if they have not repented of specific sins. Living blatant sin-filled lives has one of two possibilities: either the person was never saved to begin with or is a very carnal Christian. Understand though a Christian will not sin so much that he becomes a mass murderer or is a great fornicator that sort of thing. The Holy Spirit will restrain a believer from much.

You asked what would be the fate of those who believed in Jesus but did not repent? If you don't repent to the cross to receive what Jesus did then you were never saved to begin with. Realize you are not born-again because you worship a false Christ, a different Jesus, one who does not teach John 10.28 that those who are saved "they shall never perish." I am saved and have the assurance nothing can separate me from God not even my flesh for it has died on the cross with Christ, and my spirit has been permanently quickened with His life. You don't have this gift. You boast in your own strength which is the epitome of someone going to Hell.

Please don't be offended by the fact that I know this about you, but give your life to the Jesus I am telling you about in the word of God. I implore you!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 12:15:00 pm by faithfulserver »

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Imperfect SBG

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 01:31:54 pm »
I am curious what you are referring to as 'loss of rewards' for those with unrepentant sin.

To what rewards do you refer?

I appreciate your passion - it fires me up to read what you type! Your comments have driven me to seek the wisdom of God through prayer and His Word.

Yet please do not place words in my mouth - I have only stressed the importance of acting on our faith, not just saying we believe then doing nothing to advance the kingdom of God. Though I have no need of justifying myself to you, I will assure you I have not once claimed works alone can save anyone. Reread my comments - you will not find that statement anywhere. Again, please do not put words in mouth.

I do not believe works bring about salvation. I believe salvation leads to doing .

I would say I agree with you in this - if someone claims to have faith in their own salvation, yet does nothing in response to that salvation, I would question if they were ever really saved to begin with.


Hear me in this as well: I boast not of my own strength. I do not believe my deeds have any merit in and of themselves - the only merit they possess is that they would glorify God and point others to Him.

I cannot think of any examples of men or women throughout the Word who accepted Jesus and did nothing in response to that acceptance - again, I am not saying that what they did do in response to their salvation saved them, only that their salvation caused them to act - because of their salvation, they became doers of the Word.

And no, I am not offended by what you think you know about me.

You are bold in your words - I pray you continue to be bold for the sake of Jesus!





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faithfulserver

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 02:18:33 pm »
I am curious what you are referring to as 'loss of rewards' for those with unrepentant sin.

To what rewards do you refer?
For example, "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father" (Rev. 2.26,27).

Not all Christians, therefore, receive this reward as you know Paul said, there are both carnal and spiritual Christians. Still both Christian. Still both saved. But only overcomers receive the reward of reigning over the nations for 1000 years as kings and priests (Rev. 20.4,5b,6), before the New City and New Earth commence.

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I appreciate your passion - it fires me up to read what you type! Your comments have driven me to seek the wisdom of God through prayer and His Word.

Yet please do not place words in my mouth - I have only stressed the importance of acting on our faith, not just saying we believe then doing nothing to advance the kingdom of God. Though I have no need of justifying myself to you, I will assure you I have not once claimed works alone can save anyone. Reread my comments - you will not find that statement anywhere. Again, please do not put words in mouth.
I have not judged you for "just saying [you] believe then doing nothing to advance the kingdom of God" nor have I accused you of claiming "works alone can save anyone" so don't put words in my mouth. Don't be like Satan that great false accuser. What I have said is that you rely on salvation by works to keep yourself allegedly saved which of course is a lie and the faith of most other religions of the world. Christianity, however, is distinct in contrasting initial salvation by faith not by works lest anyone should boast. In all honesty I feel like I am talking to a zombie. The truth is I am talking to someone whose spirit is dead to God that's why you come across to me this way. No amount of convincing will convince you. What you need to do is search God out with all your heart and soul only then will you find the God who when He intelligently saves in His infinite foreknowledge saves one time and lets no man puck the saved out of His hand so that "they shall never perish." You say they can perish. God says they can't. You worship a false Christ. Repent and give your life to the One True God Christ Jesus. Just as you are born physically once only, you can only be born of God once, not twice, not three times or more. This takes humility to accept before God will save you.

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I do not believe works bring about salvation. I believe salvation leads to doing .

I would say I agree with you in this - if someone claims to have faith in their own salvation, yet does nothing in response to that salvation, I would question if they were ever really saved to begin with.
I have never accused you of "believing works bring about salvation" so why go down that line of argument? Nor have I accused you of believing salvation does not "lead to doing." You are so confused! When you claim you can keep yourself saved and possibly lose salvation, it shows you don't know Jesus but worship a false Christ. A person who thinks he can lose salvation was never saved to begin with. It's easy to see for one who has life.

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Hear me in this as well: I boast not of my own strength. I do not believe my deeds have any merit in and of themselves - the only merit they possess is that they would glorify God and point others to Him.
You can say you don't boast of your own strength, but the reality is that you do, for you claim you are saved and yet can lose salvation when the Bible says a person who is saved can never lose it.

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I cannot think of any examples of men or women throughout the Word who accepted Jesus and did nothing in response to that acceptance - again, I am not saying that what they did do in response to their salvation saved them, only that their salvation caused them to act - because of their salvation, they became doers of the Word.

And no, I am not offended by what you think you know about me.

You are bold in your words - I pray you continue to be bold for the sake of Jesus!
Our discussion is not about whether someone does no good acts once saved, but those acts and a change of mind can lead one to be unsaved after being saved. Someone who is truly saved would never change his mind or in his strength deny the salvation received. Even if someone were saved and being unfaithful, God is faithful to keep His elect.

Your god is unable to do this so God of the Bible trumps your god every time.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 02:25:27 pm by faithfulserver »

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Imperfect SBG

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 02:29:31 pm »
What have I said to lead you to assume that I believe works are what keep me saved?

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faithfulserver

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 02:46:38 pm »
What have I said to lead you to assume that I believe works are what keep me saved?
There is no assuming by me recognizing you said, consistent with the rest of your comments, "Let us consider Judas Iscariot, a man who walked with Jesus, prayed with Jesus, fellowshipped with His people, presumably teaching and healing, performing miracles in the name of Jesus Christ."

You are clearing saying Judas was saved then was not. Such is impossible though.

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Imperfect SBG

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2013, 09:18:36 am »
faithfulserver - I want to thank you again for helping me to grow in my knowledge of the Word!

2 Timothy 3:16

'All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness...'

I took part in this discussion to further my own understanding of the Word, and to maybe have a positive impact on someone else's understanding of the Word as well, in accordance with this passage.

I have sought out much in the Bible because of this conversation, and for that I am grateful - meditating on the Word daily has a great impact on our daily lives!

I came across Galatians 3 - I believe this chapter, especially the first few verses, is very useful in this conversation.

Praise God that when we ask for wisdom He is faithful to provide!

Salvation comes by faith in Jesus the Christ - 'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works...' Ephesians 2: 8-10

We are not saved by anything we do, or by our own power - we are saved by God's grace!

I pray we would never forget from whom our salvation came; I pray, too, that we would be doers of the Word, and not just hearers.


May God bless you all.


Side note: faithfulserver, you have raised a curiosity for me, that is, the salvation of the 12. When were they saved? 


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faithfulserver

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2013, 02:57:19 pm »
Salvation comes by faith in Jesus the Christ - 'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works...' Ephesians 2: 8-10

We are not saved by anything we do, or by our own power - we are saved by God's grace!

Side note: faithfulserver, you have raised a curiosity for me, that is, the salvation of the 12. When were they saved?
Only 11 were saved. Judas never gave his life to Christ.

If you believe you are saved and that you can lose salvation, I can confidently say you have never been saved.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 05:35:26 pm by faithfulserver »

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faithfulserver

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2013, 10:23:44 pm »
That would be a weird kind of salvation if you get saved (born-again) as a child of God then unborn then born-again again, then unborn again, etc. What kind of God is that? Not the God of the Bible.

Whereas my God saves once for always in His infinite foreknowledge whom to give His life to.

William Craig doesn't know this God. That much is clear.

Let's worship the God we give our lives to who keeps since we don't have the strength to keep ourselves saved except William Lane Craig does. Pride begets the fall.

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JohnnyZ

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Re: Can a Person who is Born-Again Lose Salvation?
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2020, 02:57:05 pm »
The Bible teaches that God elected individuals to salvation based on nothing other than His sovereign decision (Romans 9:15-16, Ephesians 2:8-9). A person is not saved by his works. That's a gospel that cannot save.

Someone who is truly saved cannot lose his salvation because God, and God only, is in charge of salvation. Read John 6:37 and 6:44 (and many other verses). And, by nature, no person wants God's salvation plan. Everyone tries to work their way into Heaven unless and until God truly saves them, at which point the person becomes born again and rests in Christ (stops working for their salvation; Hebrews 4:10).