What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« on: November 05, 2013, 01:30:33 pm »
What was the fight between God and Satan about?

Let us remember that no one was there to record anything and we have to somehow explain why God put Satan in Eden. Everything said is thus speculation only, --- be it from me or from you.

I think the disagreement between God and Satan was because Satan did not want to meet up with God in Eden where he was told to insure that A & E sin, --- so that God could murder Jesus and Adam and Eve as he had planned to do even before the first sin.

God wanted to self-aggrandise himself and Satan thought that that was going too far, and saw his placement in Eden by God as a horrible sin on God's part.

Satan did not want to be seen helping God do such a vile thing to A & E or have the world think of him as evil as God, --- via his collusion with God in murder.

Satan had his pride and morals to think of and did not want God to murder Jesus and Adam and Eve just for God’s own overinflated pride.

Rev 13; 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Note that God had decided to have Jesus murdered before the foundation of the earth and even the potential for sin.

Quite insane and immoral that, --- if any of my speculation is true.

Do you have a better speculation?

Is Satan showing a better morals position than God, --- in not wanting to tempt A & E, --- and set up Jesus to be sacrificed?

There is a hymn called Exsultet that calls Adam’s sin necessary to God’s plan and a happy fault that it happened.

Was Adam’s sin a necessary and a happy fault as the Exsultet hymn says?

Regards
DL

1

NicOfTime

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 10:39:41 am »
Since only God was here first, then Satan would know that Satan was at best second, that Satan was a created being, that only God is transcendent / eternal / immortal.  God is so radiantly and obviously perfect that any being who knows God as closely and personally as Satan does could not possibly deny God's perfection.  A being that perfect would not create an environment that is perceived as imperfect or needing improvement.

Satan knew God close up and personal.  Satan was not human, so could not have human imperfections.  Satan knew God in a way that humans never have.  So Satan is in a much better position to judge the character of God than humans are.

Given absolute facts that Satan, as one of God's best and brightest, would no doubt know, then Satan's decision to rebel must be based on things that Satan knows about God that humans don't.

I suspect that humans have an idealized viewpoint about God.  It would make no sense at all for Satan to rebel -- without a good reason.  I suspect that God is not as perfect as humans think he is.

I'm not so sure that we can trust in the perfection of a God who creates beings that rebel against him -- especially beings that know God up close and personal.  There's either something instrinsically or unavoidably wrong (imperfect) with the beings God creates, since they're processing absolute, undeniable information imperfectly...or, if they're perfect, then there must be something wrong with the God who creates them.

Sounds like God has had problems with rebellion for as long as he can remember.

Or -- maybe this whole story is just a metaphor, an abstraction of the intrinsic, unavoidable, internal dialog, ambivalences, and conflicts that occur in human psychology.

Nah.  That's too simple...

2
Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 12:57:11 pm »
It is. It forgets man's love of drama. I think that is what ultimately drives religions. And the tribal aspects of course.

Regards
DL

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thomasusa80

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 12:31:08 am »
It really is. This forgets mankind's love connected with crisis. I think that is what exactly finally devices religions. And also the tribal areas of training course.

Respect
DL.



thomasusa80

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 07:43:14 am »
Thanks.

It would be nice if we could rid ourselves of the tribal factor as then we could deal with reality instead of unthinking insecurity driven tribal instincts.

We need more goats and less sheep but we seem to breed more sheep.

Regards
DL

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H.H.

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 08:10:29 am »
What was the fight between God and Satan about?
Ezekiel 28
11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


Quote
Sounds like God has had problems with rebellion for as long as he can remember.



Quote
Or -- maybe this whole story is just a metaphor, an abstraction of the intrinsic, unavoidable, internal dialog, ambivalences, and conflicts that occur in human psychology.

Nah.  That's too simple...

PaRDeS

    Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning.
    Remez (רֶמֶז) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
    Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
    Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.
some dive into the sea, some toil upon the stone

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 08:23:07 am »
H H

Where did the iniquity in Satan come from?

All that is emanated from God. Right?

So God must have put it in him.

How then can God say that it was suddenly found in Satan. God had to put it there when he create Satan. Right?

Being omnipotent he would also have know about the iniquity and to say he found it is miss-leading.

Or is there some other creator who put that in Satan?

Regards
DL

7

JLebron

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2015, 01:06:25 am »
this post was very interesting.

Loved this: "I'm not so sure that we can trust in the perfection of a God who creates beings that rebel against him"

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2015, 06:18:21 am »
this post was very interesting.

Loved this: "I'm not so sure that we can trust in the perfection of a God who creates beings that rebel against him"

Exactly.


Perhaps the Jews knew this a long time ago, it looks way too human, and perhaps that is why Jews rightfully decided that man should take control of his own destiny and recognize that since he is creating his own Gods, man may as well take that title to himself.

I, as a Gnostic Christian, agree with that position. It is a superior position to following an absentee God.

The Jews came up with their Divine Council and Gnostic Christians brought that thinking to the individual level.

The only God fit to rule men and women is a man or a woman. That is how it has always been and all we have ever had. Who but a man or woman can express the will of God?

There have always only been men and women of good hearts able to express God's real will.

Like Jesus and his wife who preached to seek God perpetually, even after finding a bit of God or Goddess within the self. We are to perpetually raise the bar of excellence for ourselves, our God.

Jesus agrees with this view as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

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Broncrider

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2015, 05:55:27 pm »
     What was the fight between God and Satan about?...I think the disagreement between God and Satan was because Satan did not want to meet up with God in Eden where he was told to insure that A & E sin, --- so that God could murder Jesus and Adam and Eve as he had planned to do even before the first sin...Satan did not want to be seen helping God do such a vile thing to A & E or have the world think of him as evil as God, --- via his collusion with God in murder.

Eze28:16 (NIV) "Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned...(vs17) Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor".

Isa14:13-14 (NIV) "You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.  I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'"

     Satan doesn't exactly sound like the conscientious objector that you are portraying in your speculation.

10
Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2015, 07:57:28 am »
     What was the fight between God and Satan about?...I think the disagreement between God and Satan was because Satan did not want to meet up with God in Eden where he was told to insure that A & E sin, --- so that God could murder Jesus and Adam and Eve as he had planned to do even before the first sin...Satan did not want to be seen helping God do such a vile thing to A & E or have the world think of him as evil as God, --- via his collusion with God in murder.

Eze28:16 (NIV) "Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned...(vs17) Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor".

Isa14:13-14 (NIV) "You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.  I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'"

     Satan doesn't exactly sound like the conscientious objector that you are portraying in your speculation.

You are reading what the winners wrote.

This is as much about God as Satan. Perhaps even more about God.

It sounds like Satan wanted equality with God or a least a chance to compete with him.

God seems to run a tyranny and that is why he banished Satan.

What we are not told is why God rewarded Satan so nicely if she actually rebelled?

Can you tell us why God gave her dominion over us and the earth and just let's her do her evil work instead of carrying out the sentence he put to Satan?

Is justice delayed justice denied in your theology?

Regards
DL

11

Broncrider

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2015, 03:03:58 pm »
     You are reading what the winners wrote...What we are not told is why God rewarded Satan so nicely if she actually rebelled?  Can you tell us why God gave her dominion over us and the earth and just let's her do her evil work instead of carrying out the sentence he put to Satan?  Is justice delayed justice denied in your theology?

     2Cor4:4, "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers...".  Despite her loss, Satan seems to still hold quite a bit of power and influence in this world; why hasn't she made any attempts to clear her name?  Talk to 'believers' and 'unbelievers' alike and the vast majority seem to think that Satan is a pretty bad person. 

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Broncrider

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2015, 12:09:35 pm »

     Like Jesus and his wife who preached to seek God perpetually, even after finding a bit of God or Goddess within the self. We are to perpetually raise the bar of excellence for ourselves, our God.  Jesus agrees with this view as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

     'We are to perpetually raise the bar of excellence for ourselves, our God' - this sounds strangely familiar...perhaps Gen3:5?  Anyway, I listened to the Alan Watts presentation that you suggested and I have a couple of comments. 
     First, Mr. Watts said (5:10 into his presentation) that it is strange that a group of people who believe that some form of a republic is the most desirable form of government should believe that the universe is ruled by a monarch - God.  I think that what Mr. Watts fails to realize is that there isn't necessarily anything wrong with a monarchy...so long as a good monarch is available.  The reason that the founding fathers chose a constitutional republic is because this form of government best deals with the shortcomings that tend to be present in fallible human beings (i.e. we tend to let power go to our heads and therefore in human governments it is good to have a system of checks and balances). 
     Second, you recommended Mr. Watt's analysis of John10:34-36 as giving evidence that Jesus agreed with the notion that there is 'a bit of God or Goddess within the [human] self'.  Unfortunately, there are numerous problems with Alan Watt's exegesis of John10:34-36.  In John10:34 Jesus quoted from Ps82:6 where it states that "you are 'gods'; you are all sons of the Most High".  The Psalmist isn't, however, making a statement about essence but rather about authority; you see, in ancient Israel the members of the assembly of judges to whom the power to render judgements was delegated by God were often referred to as 'gods'.  Psalm 82 is condemning mere humans who have been given authority by God to judge, but instead are abusing that authority. 
     Jesus used the statement from Ps82:6 as a form of an a fortiori argument (a minori ad maius to be precise) to emphasize the fact that he possessed his Father's authority, and to emphasize the extent of his right to call himself the Son of God.  There are two forms of an a fortiori argument: a maiori ad minus (from the greater to the lesser) and a minori ad maius (from the lesser to the greater).  If Jesus were using the former (in the absence of the context of Ps82) then his words might have supported Mr. Watt's assertion since Jesus would have simply been placing himself into a class (all human beings) in which it is appropriate to call all of the members 'gods'.  E.g. if any human can be legitimately called a 'god' then surely I (Jesus) can call myself 'a god' as well. 
     Jesus, however, was clearly not placing himself into the same class as all other human beings since he emphasizes his unique standing in vs 36 - 'the one whom the Father set apart as his very own'.  Basically his argument is: if mere mortals can in some cases (as judges) be called 'gods' then how much more appropriate is it to call me, 'the Son of God', God? Mr. Watts at this point took the liberty of inserting the indefinite article 'a' into the text (1:45 into his lecture he incorrectly quotes Jesus as calling himself 'a son of god'), but if you look at the original greek texts they all use the definite article 'the'.  By using the definite article Jesus does set himself apart from mere men and does not support Mr. Watt's thesis.  If there is any doubt as to Jesus' intent, we have recorded in vs 39 his listeners repeated attempt to 'seize' him.  If Jesus had just assuaged their initial concerns of blasphemy by saying that he was a mere mortal just like them then why do they still think he has committed blasphemy?

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Broncrider

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2015, 12:21:28 pm »

What we are not told is why God rewarded Satan so nicely if she actually rebelled?

Can you tell us why God gave her dominion over us and the earth and just let's her do her evil work instead of carrying out the sentence he put to Satan?

Is justice delayed justice denied in your theology?

     Have you read Eze28:11-19?  Reward certainly isn't the first word that comes to mind when I read this passage.  Verse11 'you were the model of perfection'; verse 13 'every precious stone adorned you'; and verse 14 'you were on the holy mount of God'.  Contrast the above phrases with verse 17 where it says, 'so I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings'.  How do you get 'reward' out of this passage?

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Broncrider

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Re: What was the fight between God and Satan about?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2015, 12:25:41 pm »

     Note that God had decided to have Jesus murdered before the foundation of the earth and even the potential for sin. Quite insane and immoral that, --- if any of my speculation is true.

     Just wondering why you haven't made any effort whatsoever to incorporate the concepts of God's foreknowledge as an omniscient being and Satan's/man's free will into the equation?