Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
« on: November 12, 2013, 02:43:07 pm »
Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.
   
I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, --- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?
 
Regards
DL

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Rick Dawkins

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Re: Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2014, 02:54:21 pm »
 i am not much of a bible reader i occasionally sift through little bits now and again, i class myself as a Gnostic  theist, and as far as i am aware in 2014 a gnostic theist is one who is more rather than less certain a God exists, than a theist.



Your Jesus and my Jesus , well i dont know about that, and everyones version of Jesus will probably differ somewhere down the line in the amount of ways you can compare imo.

I do agree that its mans jobs to step up to the plate and save themselves, not wait for Jesus.

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Re: Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2014, 02:54:36 pm »
i am not much of a bible reader i occasionally sift through little bits now and again, i class myself as a Gnostic  theist, and as far as i am aware in 2014 a gnostic theist is one who is more rather than less certain a God exists, than a theist.



Your Jesus and my Jesus , well i dont know about that, and everyones version of Jesus will probably differ somewhere down the line in the amount of ways you can compare imo.

I do agree that its mans jobs to step up to the plate and save themselves, not wait for Jesus.

I think that that is one of the main reasons Rome created the other Jesus. They did not want people who could step up. The other type is easier to manipulate and control.

But for sure each of us will see our internal Jesus differently. Men will see a male Jesus and women a female one, so to speak.

They also did not like the way we gave women full equality while Rome wanted women to remain as chattel and subservient to men.

Theist denotes belief in a creator and ruler of earth, Usually.

If we Gnostics have a God within, we rule and not some external God. That is what stepping up is all about.

I look forward to your reply.
Many step up but not many call themselves Gnostics. I think that will change over time if religions are not outlawed by an enlightened secular system that will recognize how the present literalists in the various belief systems are hurting the whole world.

Regards
DL

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Rick Dawkins

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Re: Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2014, 08:09:00 pm »
i am not much of a bible reader i occasionally sift through little bits now and again, i class myself as a Gnostic  theist, and as far as i am aware in 2014 a gnostic theist is one who is more rather than less certain a God exists, than a theist.



Your Jesus and my Jesus , well i dont know about that, and everyones version of Jesus will probably differ somewhere down the line in the amount of ways you can compare imo.

I do agree that its mans jobs to step up to the plate and save themselves, not wait for Jesus.

I think that that is one of the main reasons Rome created the other Jesus. They did not want people who could step up. The other type is easier to manipulate and control.

But for sure each of us will see our internal Jesus differently. Men will see a male Jesus and women a female one, so to speak.

They also did not like the way we gave women full equality while Rome wanted women to remain as chattel and subservient to men.

Theist denotes belief in a creator and ruler of earth, Usually.

If we Gnostics have a God within, we rule and not some external God. That is what stepping up is all about.

I look forward to your reply.
Many step up but not many call themselves Gnostics. I think that will change over time if religions are not outlawed by an enlightened secular system that will recognize how the present literalists in the various belief systems are hurting the whole world.

Regards
DL

As far as i am concerned There is 7 positions stemming from the concept of  the word God and each categorically state the position each person in the world has on the word GOD.

1.Gnostic atheist - think dawkins
2.atheist
3agnostic atheist
4 agnostic
5agnostic theist
6Theist
7 Gnostic theist

rome creating an other jesus ? That would be possibly a high degree of falsehood? Maybe rome descent christian churches suppressing the other side of jesus ?

i dont think a false jesus would have been erected i would say possibly they just didnt include the full texts, for whatever reasons they had, i wouldnt say just to control people, more like to not batter peoples head with things that appear contradictory imo.

like the suppression of The gospel of judas?

hmm  rome  and specifically Constantine could also be said to be why Christianity still exists?


id also say that if gnostics have a God within, then so does every other person, we are not some special people who have god and others dont, to think so doesn't seem to make sense to me.

well i suppose literalists themselves are maybe a dying breed with the internet, at least on the side of the bible and   Christianity at least,?

And wouldn't, i or you, become literalistic if we said our interpretations of some biblical texts was the truth and the other peoples  wrong?

 Surely without intense scrutiny we would be?

maybe you are arguing against the mainstream Churchs?  The pope etc?


What do u make of John lennox ? he surely isn't a literalist in the sense you meant ? in my view john lennox would be a gnostic theist


« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 08:28:18 pm by Rick Dawkins »

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Re: Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2014, 08:50:26 am »
Rich

Even in the days of St. James, his church complained of other beliefs infiltrating his church so suppression of what Jesus taught has been going on forever. Some of that may have been them speaking against Paul’s view. By faith alone as compared to, --- you shall know them by their deeds.

When I spoke of Rome, I was going to the time scale shown in this clip. Constantine bought the church much latter.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE

I read the book. It is persuasive.

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Gnostics do recognize that all have a God within. They were Universalists like Jesus was. We cannot help but be if we are to believe that we all have that spark of God within us. That may be part of why the Christianity chosen by Rome was the one with a carrot and stick and not the more loving Universalist church. People just love to hate those from other tribes. Religion, at its roots, is just tribalism.

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“literalists themselves are maybe a dying breed with the internet,”

Let us pray. Soonest is best.

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“And wouldn't, i or you, become literalistic if we said our interpretations of some biblical texts was the truth and the other peoples wrong?”

I do not think so. Some wisdom saying should be taken as literally written but not necessarily in the context given. We should always give ourselves that way out.

Turn the other cheek for example works well for smaller infractions but does not work at all for larger ones.

I do not mind giving a shirt thief my coat but I would not give the rapist of my wife my daughter for his next.

Pardon the disgusting analogy but it shows what I mean.

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“maybe you are arguing against the mainstream Churchs?  The pope etc?”

Absolutely. They are not walking their talk. I do not see any religion doing so.

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“What do u make of John lennox ?”

I do not know him well enough to opine but even as I am a Gnostic Christian, I do not use the word theist to describe myself as that usually denotes belief in a creator God and my apotheosis negated that notion. So does logic and reason.

That being said, I have no proof to show for my beliefs either. I just believe as I do because personal experience has led my choice of beliefs. Personal experience cannot be ignored.

Regards
DL

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Rick Dawkins

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Re: Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2014, 09:36:43 am »
i dont see how your apotheosis negates your belief that you are a not theist,seems to me you are saying a theist or at least a Christian theist   is one who believes in the common Christian God as preached by the majority of the standard churchgoers? , and if you dont hold the belief  of that of the common view of the Christian God then that negates your belief in God. seems to me, all it negates is that you dont believe in their interpretation of GOD.

If you hold the belief that everyone has the spark of God with in them, then that  Is at least part of what makes up your concept of  God.

If i align myself with Christianity  and say i am a theist and a gnostic , then that makes me all a Christian gnostic theist, and thats what i class myself as .

Although by aligning with a religion most people would probably assume you are a theist in part at least .imo.
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The turn the other cheek writings could possibly be said to be a message of the importance of stamping out vicious circles. imo.

i
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 09:42:52 am by Rick Dawkins »

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Re: Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2014, 10:02:14 am »
Quote
i dont see how your apotheosis negates your belief that you are a not theist,seems to me you are saying a theist or at least a Christian theist   is one who believes in the common Christian God as preached by the majority of the standard churchgoers? , and if you dont hold the belief  of that of the common view of the Christian God then that negates your belief in God. seems to me, all it negates is that you dont believe in their interpretation of GOD.

Gnostic Christians have never believed in what you know as the Christian God. That would take a literal belief of scriptures and that was never the Gnostic Christian way. If it would have been the likely the Christianity that Constantine bought would not have killed us and burned our scriptures.

The kingdom of God is at hand as Jesus said and to believe in a single deity or creator God goes against Gnostic Christian beliefs.

Quote
If you hold the belief that everyone has the spark of God with in them, then that  Is at least part of what makes up your concept of  God.

Absolutely.

Not sure what your point was though.

Quote
If i align myself with Christianity  and say i am a theist and a gnostic , then that makes me all a Christian gnostic theist, and thats what i class myself as .

Although by aligning with a religion most people would probably assume you are a theist in part at least .imo.
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I do not think you have read the Gnostic gospels. They do not see God as Christians do. Gnostic gospels have what they call a demiurge or evil God. Not like Christianity at all.

Quote
The turn the other cheek writings could possibly be said to be a message of the importance of stamping out vicious circles. imo.

i

Perhaps.

Most of that dialog was when Jesus was speaking of how Jews should handle demand from the Roman soldiers. Jesus' walk two miles when asked to walk one is a direct reference to when a soldier could legally demand that someone carry his pack a mile.

Regards
DL

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Rick Dawkins

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Re: Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2014, 10:47:30 am »
 i haven't read the gnostic gospels ,well , maybe little pieces of them. ill have to have a read XD.

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Re: Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2014, 10:54:36 am »
Remember not to read them literally. That would kill the wisdom within them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09tzKUuIgzQ&feature=related

Regards
DL