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Prodigal Son

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The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« on: November 14, 2013, 09:43:30 pm »
The Bible defines the soul as the mind, will, and emotions. The Bible also tells us that as a baby up to and through the time He was a man Jesus had to learn and grow. He didn't know everything as a man. He had a finite and limited mind. This was His human soul. This is the soul that would die as He was nailed to the cross. The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus died for sinners. As God, Jesus didn't have to learn and grow. He was infinite in wisdom and knowledge. This is His Divine soul. This is what entered His new body when He was resurrected. The finite human soul has perished. The Divine soul lives forever.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 09:52:21 pm by Prodigal Son »

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Satarack

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2013, 09:57:47 pm »
He saves us, only if he lived, died, and was raised as one of us.  If Jesus' humanity perished, then we have no salvation.

Edit: To elaborate, the problem we have is our damaged, finite nature.  In his work on earth, Jesus healed and made the human nature whole in his person; and we can be the beneficiaries of his healing grace if we join in union with him.  If we graft ourselves as branches onto his vine, we can receive the everlasting life flowing through him; if we, as the church, join in matrimony with him as his bride; if we as stones, make ourselves into a temple in which he will dwell.

In this way, we become heirs to the kingdom of the heavens; for we are joined to him who is the son of god, the rightful heir, and we share in his glory.

If, however, Jesus did not heal the human nature in his person, but instead cast it off, then we have no right to his glory.  We only have salvation if Jesus is the divine man, the one who is both god and man.  His healed and perfected humanity being the link allowing us to join the family of the trinity.  But if Jesus is not human, there is no bridge for the infinite chasm between us and God.

Edited it a 2nd time to make it more apparent what part of my post I added with my first edit.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 10:47:48 pm by Satarack »

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2013, 10:01:47 pm »
Why's that?

It calls our resurrected body a spiritual body.

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Satarack

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2013, 10:36:58 pm »
No, scripture does not call the resurrection body spiritual:

Quote
Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.
Luke 24:38-39

Spiritual resurrection is a theory of modern era western theologians who felt threatened by deism and atheism and were looking for a theology that couldn't be disproved by empirical or historical investigation.  A theology of spiritual resurrection was safe from the criticisms of deists and atheists, in the increasingly secular academic culture of modern, western Europe.  This was more pronounced in protestant countries, because of the aversions of some protestants to miracles*.  There simply are no advocates for spiritual resurrections within the christian intellectual tradition prior to the modern era.

*Certain protestant groups had developed suspicions towards miracle claims as a result of counter polemics against Catholics, who argued for the legitimacy of the Catholic church on the basis alleged of miracles occurring within the Catholic church in their day and miracles recorded within the tradition of the Catholic Church.

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2013, 10:49:57 pm »
Quote
No, scripture does not call the resurrection body spiritual
:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. - 1 Cor. 15:44

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2013, 11:05:04 pm »
Satarack,

I'm not sure I see your point. We are given a spiritual body in the resurrection. This is the type of body Christ has. We are in a spiritual mystical union with Him. My human body isn't connected to His human body though.

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Satarack

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2013, 11:31:57 pm »
The word translated to body in 1 Corinthians 15:44 is σῶμα (soma), which always refers to a concrete body, or figuratively to refer to organized groups of individuals.   The word for physical  is ψυχικόν (psychikon), which is an adjective of ψυχή (psyche).  The word translated to spiritual, πνευματικός (pneumatikon) is an adjective of πνεῦμα (pneuma).

Psyche doesn't have any physical connotations to it, on the most literal level it means breath; it refers to the living energy or essence of things in the world.

Pneuma is used throughout the new testament to refer to the holy spirit, so in saying that this is a soma pneumatikon, he's saying that the new body is filled with the Holy spirit, while the old body, the soma psychikon, had the energy and essence of the things in this world.

However, if you want to go against the consensus of experts in Koine greek on the meaning of soma; there's still the problem that the passage of Luke I quoted would be explicitly contradicting your interpretation of Paul.  On the other hand, if Paul was talking about physical bodies then there is no contradiction between Paul and the words of Christ recorded in the Gospel of Luke.

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2013, 11:48:28 pm »
Quote
Psyche doesn't have any physical connotations to it, on the most literal level it means breath; it refers to the living energy or essence of things in the world.

Yes

Quote
Pneuma is used throughout the new testament to refer to the holy spirit, so in saying that this is a soma pneumatikon, he's saying that the new body is filled with the Holy spirit, while the old body, the soma psychikon, had the energy and essence of the things in this world.

 The old body is human (Psyche). While the new body is spiritual. (Pneuma)

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 11:56:40 pm »
They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies. NLT

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 12:02:31 am »
Psyche - Life, breath, soul, person.

The context is referring to person (human).

They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies. NLT

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Questions11

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 12:33:32 am »
I've come across a number of theologians who would agree with Prodigal that the resurrection body isn't a recusitated corpse (can't remember who).  But in that case I'd question as to why Jesus's body was missing.  What is the connection, if any, between my current physical form and the type of body I'll have in the resurrection?

I also find it hard to think that Jesus stripped off His humanity - at least according to some old creeds Jesus' would never lose that part of His nature, and it certainly would be a greater sacrifice is God the Son emptied Himself of Godhood for eternity.

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Satarack

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 12:47:52 am »
The old body is human (Psyche). While the new body is spiritual. (Pneuma)

No, the old body had the life of the world we currently live in (life shared in common with plants and animals), the new body has the life of the holy spirit.  Psychikon does not mean human, ever, it refers to something more fundamental than human.  This is why it's often translated as natural body; because it means a body that has the energies and essence of the natural world we currently live in. With pneumatikon Paul is using a stipulative definition, which is why he goes on to explain his intent later in the letter.  He explains that in the Resurrection we clothe our perishable, corruptible body, that we currently have, with the imperishable, incorruptible nature of the holy spirit, so that our bodies are transformed becoming imperishable and incorruptible.

Which brings me full circle to why Jesus needs to have been raised a human.  First, if he wasn't raised a human, then why did he even incarnate in the first place?  He doesn't need to be a human to defeat the powers of sin and death; he's omnipotent.  He would only choose to defeat the powers of the world in this way if doing so brought about something else that he wanted, other than simply to defeat the powers of sin.

And the traditional answer to that is that he wanted his victory to also be our victory, so that we might be saved from the corruption of sin that has infected our nature.  He became a human so that other humans could be healed of their corrupted nature through him; his victory came in his resurrection, and for us humans to have victory over the corruption of sin, Jesus needed to be victorious as a human.  Otherwise we cannot lay any claim to his victory.  He is one of us, a human; he is victorious, so we too are victorious.

EDIT: Anyway, it's almost 3 AM in the morning, and I have to help my brother move into a new house tomorrow, so I'm done for the night.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 12:52:31 am by Satarack »

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2013, 12:50:40 am »
How can my resurrection new body be the 'same' as this one?  Isn't there a fundamental problem in the recycling of atoms?

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Prodigal Son

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2013, 12:51:57 am »
Psyche - Life, breath, soul, person.

The context is referring to person (human).

They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies. NLT

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Paul DeMott

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Re: The Two Souls Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 11:07:37 am »
The Bible defines the soul as the mind, will, and emotions. The Bible also tells us that as a baby up to and through the time He was a man Jesus had to learn and grow. He didn't know everything as a man. He had a finite and limited mind. This was His human soul. This is the soul that would die as He was nailed to the cross. The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus died for sinners. As God, Jesus didn't have to learn and grow. He was infinite in wisdom and knowledge. This is His Divine soul. This is what entered His new body when He was resurrected. The finite human soul has perished. The Divine soul lives forever.

Your view would be considered heretical by orthodox Christians.

From the Nicene Creed:

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."