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SPF

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God does not exist
« on: December 05, 2013, 12:15:56 pm »
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1. It is [metaphysically] possible that God does not exist.
2. If it is possible that God does not exist, then God does not exist in some possible world.
3. If God does not exist in some possible world, then God does not exist in every possible world.
4. If God does not exist in every possible world, then God does not exist in the actual world.
5. If God does not exist in the actual world, then God does not exist.
6. Therefore, God does not exist.

Thoughts?
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Prodigal Son

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 12:19:43 pm »
If God is a Necessary Being then it's not metaphysically possible that He doesn't exist.

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Bertuzzi

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 12:43:03 pm »
The issue with the RMOA lies in the formulation of premise 2. God (as a MGB) has not yet been shown to be incoherent, therefore He still possibly exists. Therefore, a MGB isn't impossible and can exist in some possible worlds. So if we are attempting to defend (2), we'd have to reformulate it as follows:

2. If it is possible that God (MGB) does not exist, then God (MGB) has to be shown as logically incoherent and can't exist in some possible world.
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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 12:50:51 pm »
This illustrates my problem with the MOA.  Prodigal, a necessary being does not necessarily exist, it either necessarily exists, or does not exist at all, the MOA does not take this into account and omits the option that it might not exist at all.  The RMOA shows this fact.

It also seems to take the position that X is possible unless it has been shown to be logically incoherent, which seems to be a bad methodology to me.

In defence of P1 of the RMOA though, I would have to say that it is perfectly coherent, for me to imagine a possible world in which God does not exist.  There is no inherent contradiction there, unless you first assert that God must exist in all possible worlds.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 12:52:24 pm by Johan Biemans (jbiemans) »

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Bertuzzi

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 12:57:26 pm »
This illustrates my problem with the MOA.  Prodigal, a necessary being does not necessarily exist, it either necessarily exists, or does not exist at all, the MOA does not take this into account and omits the option that it might not exist at all.  The RMOA shows this fact.

It also seems to take the position that X is possible unless it has been shown to be logically incoherent, which seems to be a bad methodology to me.

In defence of P1 of the RMOA though, I would have to say that it is perfectly coherent, for me to imagine a possible world in which God does not exist.  There is no inherent contradiction there, unless you first assert that God must exist in all possible worlds.

Just a couple things here. Conceptions might still be metaphysically impossibilities. That's why the distinction is important. So while logical coherence is the first step, we must take it a step further. As with God, we seem to have metaphysical warrant in addition to logical coherence. But notice that the metaphysical warrant is completely thwarted if we are able to prove logical incoherence.
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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 01:04:37 pm »
I agree that if you can show logical incoherence it is the silver bullet that can instantly rerail an argument, but that need not be the only way.  I do also have warrant, but it would take a long time to get into; although, I am not really sure that warrant is required......

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Bertuzzi

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 01:14:22 pm »
First we would need a maximal description of the world (without God). From there we can test if it is logically coherent. Then we can move to metaphysical warrant.
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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 01:21:23 pm »
I don't think that much is necessary.  There is nothing that I can think of that would make the notion logically incoherent right ?

If you assert that God exists in every possible world, and I assert that there is at least 1 possible world where God does not exist, how do we settle this disagreement ?

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Bertuzzi

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 01:24:59 pm »
One way is to discuss whether or not your claimed world is coherent. It would help if you gave a set of propositions that are true in this world. Something like: "The constants are quantities are necessary". I think that would help.
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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 02:16:34 pm »
But it is virtually impossible to list all aspects of a possible world for scrutiny.  For the sake of argument though, it could match this one exactly except that God does not exist within it.

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Bertuzzi

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 02:25:37 pm »
This is just my own thought, I don't know that using possible world semantics is doable using the actual world. For instance, we do not know with absolute certainty that the proposition "evolution is true" is true. Thus it is helpful to discuss possible worlds where these propositions are true. But I am getting the feeling you're just not interested in going down that path.
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GRWelsh

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 02:27:26 pm »
For those to object to premise 1 on the basis that you define God as a necessary being: don't you think it is notable that it is possible to conceive of God not existing without that thought being incoherent?  For example, saying "if God doesn't exist" is not incoherent in the same way as saying "if 2+2 doesn't equal 4" or "If a triangle doesn't have three sides" or some other nonsense that is obviously self-contradictory and impossible.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 02:59:50 pm by GRWelsh »
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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 02:37:13 pm »
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This is just my own thought, I don't know that using possible world semantics is doable using the actual world. For instance, we do not know with absolute certainty that the proposition "evolution is true" is true. Thus it is helpful to discuss possible worlds where these propositions are true. But I am getting the feeling you're just not interested in going down that path.

Well the actual world is itself a possible world, so for the sake of argument, I was asking you to take the actual world and remove God from it, I see no inherent contradictions there, which makes it coherent, does it not ?

None of the arguments like fine tuning etc, that rely on the improbability actually say that it is impossible, thus even if highly improbably it happening naturally is still possible, and thus there is a possible world where it happens naturally.

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Bertuzzi

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 02:56:16 pm »
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This is just my own thought, I don't know that using possible world semantics is doable using the actual world. For instance, we do not know with absolute certainty that the proposition "evolution is true" is true. Thus it is helpful to discuss possible worlds where these propositions are true. But I am getting the feeling you're just not interested in going down that path.

Well the actual world is itself a possible world, so for the sake of argument, I was asking you to take the actual world and remove God from it, I see no inherent contradictions there, which makes it coherent, does it not ?

None of the arguments like fine tuning etc, that rely on the improbability actually say that it is impossible, thus even if highly improbably it happening naturally is still possible, and thus there is a possible world where it happens naturally.

Let's call it W1. Is naturalism true in this world?
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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: God does not exist
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 03:22:01 pm »
I don't know, to be honest.  I don't know if it is relevant though.  God is not the only supernatural element possible, right?  So even lacking God, the supernatural may still exist in this possible world ?  I don't even know if the supernatural exists in the actual world.