3theghost

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Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« on: December 11, 2013, 11:10:53 am »
Hello, I'm new here and just wanted to ask a question concerning the idea evolution and of the earth being billions of years old... If the earth in fact is billions of years old, and evolution did take place, even if "guided" by God (which Dr. Craig assumes to be true), then wasn't there death in the world before sin? How do we rationalize this?

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Re: Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2013, 11:20:20 am »
Welcome to the forum. I'm new at this myself. But what's to rationalize? The Bible does not say there was no death before the fall. It only says there was no human death, Romans 5.12.
"The state of death is eternal, whatever may be its nature. . . . All our actions and thoughts must take such different directions according to the state of that eternity." Those who live in indifference to a matter so important to them are wholly unreasonable. Pensees

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sdsmith

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Re: Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 03:58:17 pm »
Having read several of Dr. Craig's works and listened to many of his podcasts and debates (particularly the Krauss debates), I don't think Dr. Craig is suggesting that God-guided macro evolution (i.e.: theistic evolution) is true; rather he is saying that is not necessarily incompatible with a belief in God.

Regarding the issue of death, I presume you're referring to Romans 5:12:  "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" (NIV)

My understanding of "death" in this context is Paul is referring to spiritual death, and not physical death. 

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Lambert

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Re: Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 07:57:02 am »
Hello, I'm new here and just wanted to ask a question concerning the idea evolution and of the earth being billions of years old... If the earth in fact is billions of years old, and evolution did take place, even if "guided" by God (which Dr. Craig assumes to be true), then wasn't there death in the world before sin? How do we rationalize this?

The so called fall of man is when he became a rational beings inside the TOK that we call conscious mind and that is needed to consciously know that we will die. This does not mean that death is not part of life, but only that we will not see it coming as outsider to man. It so is wherein we are temporal in our conscious mind to which the flip-side is that we are eternal in our sub-conscious mind as animal there.

It's mythology that makes its way with words to isolate our Adamic nature as second to us and for this an insurrectionist is needed to undo this Gordian knot in effort to set man free as animal and be eternal again.

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Blake1960

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Re: Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2014, 11:00:29 pm »
The so called fall of man is when he became a rational beings inside the TOK that we call conscious mind and that is needed to consciously know that we will die. This does not mean that death is not part of life, but only that we will not see it coming as outsider to man. It so is wherein we are temporal in our conscious mind to which the flip-side is that we are eternal in our sub-conscious mind as animal there.

It's mythology that makes its way with words to isolate our Adamic nature as second to us and for this an insurrectionist is needed to undo this Gordian knot in effort to set man free as animal and be eternal again.

Better to be animalistic absent conscious?  An "insurrectionist" is needed?  Are you too timid to name him? 

A deceiver characterizes truth as mythology.  First time I've noticed a Satanist on the forum. 

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Lambert

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Re: Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2014, 12:02:04 am »
The so called fall of man is when he became a rational beings inside the TOK that we call conscious mind and that is needed to consciously know that we will die. This does not mean that death is not part of life, but only that we will not see it coming as outsider to man. It so is wherein we are temporal in our conscious mind to which the flip-side is that we are eternal in our sub-conscious mind as animal there.

It's mythology that makes its way with words to isolate our Adamic nature as second to us and for this an insurrectionist is needed to undo this Gordian knot in effort to set man free as animal and be eternal again.

Better to be animalistic absent conscious?  An "insurrectionist" is needed?  Are you too timid to name him? 

A deceiver characterizes truth as mythology.  First time I've noticed a Satanist on the forum.

You must be a self proclaimed Christian to write something like that.

And OK, Jesus was one and he told us to follow him and do the same.

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Re: Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2014, 09:38:57 am »
When life first began on our planet, it was "virtually" eternal because progeneration consisted of the "splitting-up" of an organism to propagate more organisms.

It was at the point in evolution when "genders" emerged and progeneration resulted in a new organism separated from other organisms that "death" became an inevitability of life.

So, in this regard, the Book of Genesis is scientifically in order in its story about a single male coming first, and then a second female coming second, and then death coming as a result of them existing together.

The Book of Genesis is also scientifically in order throughout the creation story, from the void to let there be light to life on Earth.

Skeptics refuse to admit to this simple reading of Genesis, but chose to read each and every word in order to find semantic errors and such. But, the very fact that Genesis has two differing accounts of Adam and Eve, and other laxations in its narrative, makes the writers of Genesis only guilty of what they claim to be doing all along--i.e., writing through inspiration and not through the fact-checking of a dry and rattling intellect.

Skeptics take their trust in what they consider to be "facts", and a pride in their own dry and rattling intellects, and then they scotch-tape these two self-centered criteria over everything they read, creating a cloudy film of sorts. In a word, skeptics render everything they read unintelligible.

Is it any wonder that a person can, and usually does, become a skeptic without any education in the subjects he or she is skeptical about? No, it isn't, just as it is no wonder that a skeptic is notoriously not skeptical of his or her own opinions and biases and shortcomings and ignorance and laziness and pride and on and on.

For skeptics, the writers of Genesis, and all "inspired" writings, are this ignorant thing and that agenda-driven thing, but they themselves have no ignorance and agenda.

In the words of Mark Twain:

Such is the human race, often it seems a pity that Noah didn't miss the boat.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 11:20:21 am by Brother Mario »

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Lambert

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Re: Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2014, 10:20:49 am »
The so called fall of man is when he became a rational beings inside the TOK that we call conscious mind and that is needed to consciously know that we will die. This does not mean that death is not part of life, but only that we will not see it coming as outsider to man. It so is wherein we are temporal in our conscious mind to which the flip-side is that we are eternal in our sub-conscious mind as animal there.

It's mythology that makes its way with words to isolate our Adamic nature as second to us and for this an insurrectionist is needed to undo this Gordian knot in effort to set man free as animal and be eternal again.

Better to be animalistic absent conscious?  An "insurrectionist" is needed?  Are you too timid to name him? 

A deceiver characterizes truth as mythology.  First time I've noticed a Satanist on the forum.

For you to ponder. If man is a rational animal, the being is animal and to be rational is quality of that being but is not the being itself. In his "Categories" Aristotle elaborated on these conditions of being to make this clear, and yes, erectus is one but red hair can be one of them too because hair is also conditional to him.

The [bare] naked animal is conscious to say that light is prior to life that now puts the glow in the image itself as an insight to be seen that Plato called Telic in the world around us, and is Eidetic when our own light is seen, and for this a re-emergence is needed to see this light radiant from us and that so puts the halo on saints.

In Catholicsm we call this parousia as the final stage in which the genus of the animal is seen, and it is upon that insight that the church was built to be the rock of Peter who's name spells insight to see this image throughout the ages to come. An ousia is an insight, just so you know, where now par-ousia refers to the final ousia that Plato called Utlimate Form because a form is wherein the inside is seen while looking from the outside in, like science would do, while after parousia the inside is seen from the inside itself, and therefore a re-emergence is needed to have this vision put the halo on the seer himself, as logos here now knowing his own cause of being as man in this end wherein we are distinct as man and unique as individual created to be as first cause in him that we call God. In Luke this is where his lineage takes him past all the ancient and right back to God as first cause in him to say what he saw and we must see to follow his way.

While the above may all sound like Greek to you, one of those may just prove you to be a Satanist for seeing this light that we call logos but not on your self. 

 

 

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dcherchenko

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Re: Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2014, 03:40:08 pm »
You should read this: http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Red-Tooth-Claw-Suffering/dp/0199237271

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shoaibwh1

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Re: Billions of Years and Death Before Sin
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 11:05:25 pm »
Thank you for your own effort on this site.