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Jabberwock

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Re: God and Aliens!
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 06:38:50 pm »
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And certainly intelligent life appeared fast on Earth.  This brings us back to the question of how exceptional we are, then.  If we're the result of natural, unexceptional mechanisms that are occurring on vast cosmic scales around us, we should see these mechanisms in play with the same unexceptional results.  And a vast number of these civilizations would be millions and millions of years old, likely expanding relentlessly and developing advanced technologies. 

This is false. Natural unexceptional mechanisms can and do produce exceptional results. Simple natural forces have produced the Great Canyon, yet nobody expects to see its exact copies everywhere. That is what I have pointed out with my anteater example.
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Rick Dawkins

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Re: God and Aliens!
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2014, 06:47:57 pm »
I saw a picture a few years ago of some primitive tribe somewhere (Brazil?) that had never had outside contact. The picture was taken from a plane or helicopter and shows some women and children and a man aiming a bow and arrow. I don't know if there are any undiscovered human tribes in existence today on the earth, but I suppose there might be.

Compared to the earth, the universe is huge so I'd don't feel Fermi's paradox is very convincing.

Another thought is that aliens might be so advanced that they don't want to bother with us at our present stage of development.

i dont think advanced aliens to exist is very plausible (in this universe), especially when you take into account that the earth is 4 billion year's old , so therefore in what we know about our own life you first need 4 billion years and then the ideal conditions for a life to exist, and on the side of logic , only life like our-selfs or what we have found and deemed to be life can exist, everything else is for sure much more speculation.

So that takes off 8 billion from the 14 billion years in the universe so that narrows down by quite alot the chance for advanced life imo , sure if my theory makes some kind of rational sense you still have 6 billion years to play with.

and my arguement is only taking into account a few factors really probably no where near alll factors  needed to attempt to calulate the existence of advanced aliens.

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12thMonkey

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Re: God and Aliens!
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2014, 07:15:12 pm »
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And certainly intelligent life appeared fast on Earth.  This brings us back to the question of how exceptional we are, then.  If we're the result of natural, unexceptional mechanisms that are occurring on vast cosmic scales around us, we should see these mechanisms in play with the same unexceptional results.  And a vast number of these civilizations would be millions and millions of years old, likely expanding relentlessly and developing advanced technologies. 

This is false. Natural unexceptional mechanisms can and do produce exceptional results. Simple natural forces have produced the Great Canyon, yet nobody expects to see its exact copies everywhere. That is what I have pointed out with my anteater example.

I'm not suggesting exact copies of anything. 

The unexceptional mechanisms that produced the Grand Canyon also produced the Arizona Slot Canyon, the Canyon de Chelly, Black Canyon, Pine Creek Gorge, Waimea Canyon, Rio Grand Gorge, Copper Canyon, etc... 

The unexceptional mechanisms that produced intelligent life on earth, given billions of earth-like planets in our galaxy alone, have had ample time and opportunities to produce unexceptional results elsewhere.  They don't have to be identical, or even similar.  But intelligent life which came about through the same processes would likely at least be recognizable, if not in all circumstances, then in most. 

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Jabberwock

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Re: God and Aliens!
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2014, 07:31:12 pm »
The unexceptional mechanisms that produced intelligent life on earth, given billions of earth-like planets in our galaxy alone, have had ample time and opportunities to produce unexceptional results elsewhere.  They don't have to be identical, or even similar.  But intelligent life which came about through the same processes would likely at least be recognizable, if not in all circumstances, then in most. 

So galaxies full of anteaters should be possible? I do not see it that way.
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12thMonkey

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Re: God and Aliens!
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2014, 10:15:25 pm »
So galaxies full of anteaters should be possible? I do not see it that way.

Intelligent life should be possible. 

While it may not be probable, it's clear that it's certainly one of the possible outcomes.  And given the scale we're discussing--50 billion earth-like planets in what we consider a habitable zone, in our galaxy alone--it becomes more and more difficult to explain why intelligent life was such an unlikely outcome. 

Are we going to begin arguing that not only is intelligence just one of many outcomes, but actually confers some negative survival value? 

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Re: God and Aliens!
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2014, 11:07:00 pm »
I believe God has made thousands of other planets with intelligent creatures capable of understanding Him. Remember, God did not make the universe for us, He made it for Himself.
“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”

-Werner Heisenberg

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Jabberwock

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Re: God and Aliens!
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2014, 11:31:56 pm »
Are we going to begin arguing that not only is intelligence just one of many outcomes, but actually confers some negative survival value?

No, intelligence is one of many outcomes, some of them unique. It is useful for survival, but not useful enough to appear more than once. Swimming, flying etc. is so useful that it has appeared many times. There is no convergence of intelligence on Earth. In other words, it might be just a fluke, a result of specific conditions, otherwise it might not appear at all.
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TheBigOhMan

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Re: God and Aliens!
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2014, 12:15:42 am »
The chances that alíen life exists is a bit countered with the fact that the universe is huuuge. Maybe they are searching us, but considering you take millions of years from star to star i would say the chances of catching us is low, even if they had wormholes or other sci-fi stuff that may be even not possible at the end.

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Questions11

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Re: God and Aliens!
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2014, 12:24:41 am »
Simon-Conway Morris argues very convincingly for convergent evolution, ie evolution only has a certain biological space to play with and will always find similar answers to the same problems (hence why certain features, like the eye, have evolved repeatedly but separately).  Thus, he argues (in a far more sophisticated manner than I'm doing now), human-like intelligence is inevitable -given certain situational contexts.

But, as I noted before, he explains that those situational contexts are so rare and special that we are probably the only intelligent life in the universe.