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Belief without Warrant

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lotharson

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On the nature of faith
« on: February 16, 2014, 01:45:40 pm »
Hello.


Nowadays "faith" is being view as a delusion by a growing number of people called the New Atheists.

So I recently wrote my own response to the charge that faith is irrational.

I differ from both evidentialists and pressupositionalists in that I don't believe that non-justified beliefs constitute knowledge BUT also that we need them on pragmatic grounds.

It is my genuine hope that what I wrote might help some of my fellow struggling Christians.

I would be glad to learn your own thoughts on that.

Cheers.
"The greatest mystery is not the sighting of an alleged ghost or UFO but the sheer existence of our consciousness."


Lotharson http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 11:45:09 pm »
Good stuff

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lotharson

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 07:13:16 am »
Thanks!

Do you also have some objections or additions?
"The greatest mystery is not the sighting of an alleged ghost or UFO but the sheer existence of our consciousness."


Lotharson http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 09:17:21 am »
I agree with much of what you said and I think you did so eloquently, but I found one thing.

I'm not sure if the bold is necessary,

Quote
Faith is the hope in some extremely desirable things even if the evidence is not sufficient for concluding.

One could get the idea that the evidence is faulty when in fact I don't think we would say about the external world that we don't have sufficient evidence for concluding that it exists.

Friendly greetings from the States!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 12:18:47 am by emailestthoume »

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lotharson

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 01:14:08 pm »
"One could get the idea that the evidence is faulty when in fact I don't think we would say about the external world that we don't have sufficient evidence for concluding that it exists."

I don't believe we have non question begging evidence we are not a brain in a vat or all parts of a gigantic computer simulation.

I consider such basic beliefs to be pragmatically but not epistemologically justified.

This is why I find the epistemology of the New Atheists and other rationalists extremely shallow and untenable.


To my mind this exemplifies very well that faith (understood as hope beyond the scope of the evidence) is an indispensable part of the life of everyone.


Friendly greetings from Europe.
"The greatest mystery is not the sighting of an alleged ghost or UFO but the sheer existence of our consciousness."


Lotharson http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.

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Jubilee

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 05:47:48 pm »
I'm increasing losing interest in writing long posts. Instead, I'm just going to mention positions to stimulate others.

Faith is the courage to act in the face of uncertainty and even against rationality. See Abraham and Kierkegaard.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2014, 12:18:23 am »
"One could get the idea that the evidence is faulty when in fact I don't think we would say about the external world that we don't have sufficient evidence for concluding that it exists."

I don't believe we have non question begging evidence we are not a brain in a vat or all parts of a gigantic computer simulation.

I consider such basic beliefs to be pragmatically but not epistemologically justified.

This is why I find the epistemology of the New Atheists and other rationalists extremely shallow and untenable.


To my mind this exemplifies very well that faith (understood as hope beyond the scope of the evidence) is an indispensable part of the life of everyone.


Friendly greetings from Europe.

Sorry, I didn't realize you had responded. I think that atheists might agree that basic beliefs are pragmatically justified… I know some on this site have said so. However, they then can say that were have to believe properly basic beliefs (PBR) to function, but we don't have to believe Christianity to be true.

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2014, 08:47:01 am »
I'm increasing losing interest in writing long posts. Instead, I'm just going to mention positions to stimulate others.

Faith is the courage to act in the face of uncertainty and even against rationality. See Abraham and Kierkegaard.

Interesting definition

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joppe

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2014, 12:58:20 pm »
In my native language, Finnish, there is no word 'faith'. Instead, the atheists use the word 'belief' to mean blind faith. So when you say 'I believe Obama is the president of the USA', it means you believe in blindly without any evidence. So it's actually even worse over here.
Saying you 'merely lack belief' in God while arguing for naturalism is the same as saying you 'don't have a political opinion' while praising a political party.

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2014, 08:23:11 am »
In my native language, Finnish, there is no word 'faith'. Instead, the atheists use the word 'belief' to mean blind faith. So when you say 'I believe Obama is the president of the USA', it means you believe in blindly without any evidence. So it's actually even worse over here.

That's sad :(

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Soyeong

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Re: On the nature of faith
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2014, 04:57:06 pm »
That said, I am far from being certain that the author of Hebrew really meant that faith creates evidence out of nothing.

He could have meant that faith is a subjective trust in a hope which is based on evidence (such as miracles, and the life, death and resurrection of the Son of God) and an invitation to go beyond the rational arguments which are not enough to conclude.

If you have good evidence that a friend is trustworthy, it is still unseen whether they will be trustworthy, so in that way faith is evidence of things unseen.  If you act in a way that demonstrates that you trust your friend, then you are having faith in them.  If it starts to look doubtful that your friend will turn out to be trustworthy, faith is the will to keep your mind focused on the reasons you had for thinking that they are trustworthy.

“For faith, properly understood, does not contradict reason in the least; indeed...it is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it.”  - Edward Feser

Quote
I differ from both evidentialists and pressupositionalists in that I don't believe that non-justified beliefs constitute knowledge BUT also that we need them on pragmatic grounds.

Is there such a thing is a non-justified belief?  People only form beliefs that they think are justified.  You can think that their justification is insufficient to form your own belief, but I don't think you can say that only your beliefs are justified and everyone who disagrees with you in unjustified in forming their beliefs.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 04:59:15 pm by Soyeong »
"Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it.”

Yeshua answered them, “The reason you go astray is that you are ignorant both of the Tanakh and of the power of God. - Matthews 22:29 (CJB)