Bertuzzi

  • ****
  • 8713 Posts
  • Check out my new blog!
    • View Profile
    • Capturing Christianity
DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« on: June 24, 2014, 10:30:21 am »
Just wanted to start this thread for comments relating to the Debate between GR and Brett posted here.

We'll assume they won't check this thread until after the debate.

So, any thoughts on GR's opening statement?
Husband. Father. Photographer. Blogger.

capturingchristianity.com

"No theodicy without eschatology." - Hick

1

Jabberwock

  • *****
  • 14510 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2014, 10:33:42 am »
YEAH, YEAH, GO GET'M, WELSH!


It is my first time - I hope I have chosen the correct debate comment format?
First learn to spell "ironic discussion"...

2

Bertuzzi

  • ****
  • 8713 Posts
  • Check out my new blog!
    • View Profile
    • Capturing Christianity
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2014, 10:36:56 am »
YEAH, YEAH, GO GET'M, WELSH!


It is my first time - I hope I have chosen the correct debate comment format?

Clearly it is your first time :)

So what do you think was his strongest point?
Husband. Father. Photographer. Blogger.

capturingchristianity.com

"No theodicy without eschatology." - Hick

3

Jabberwock

  • *****
  • 14510 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2014, 10:48:26 am »
Clearly it is your first time :)

So what do you think was his strongest point?

Oh, so I need to read that wall of text to comment? Bummer. *puts down popcorn*
First learn to spell "ironic discussion"...

4

Rick Dawkins

  • **
  • 817 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2014, 10:50:20 am »
Seemingly, its well written,  a few more  paragraphs wouldnt go amiss imo, i skipped kind of bottom half cus i am tired .

its imo quite proffessional, like debates  i have watched with wlc etc.

Some of it i have to take for granted, but i believe i can beat that arguement, not in as elequent a manner , but i think it is a mistaken argument,i wont say why because its not my place to atm.


Strongest points would be that the arguement is seemingly strong, like i think he makes a point  proving that gratiously suffering exists and you cant deny it , and that i think proves God isnt what Chiristians say God is, and so therefore it isnt God or something like that.


Actually i just remembered there is 2 things i can beat that arguement with imo. ( well 1 thing and i think a flaw elsewhere)

« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 10:54:13 am by Rick Dawkins »

5

Θεόφιλε

  • **
  • 742 Posts
  • Romans 11:33-36
    • View Profile
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2014, 10:59:50 am »
I find that the weakness of the argument lies in premise 1).   From his definition of omnibenevolence, we cannot conclude that gratuitous evil cannot exist if God exists.  Much depends on the definition one gives to goodness. Much also depends on the understanding that suffering does not necessarily equal evil.  Within the parameters of the definitions, there is much room for sufficient reasons that are unbeknownst (or only partially known) to us in which the four tenants (knowledge, power, goodness and evil) can perfectly coexist. 
Know the war. Lose the battle.

6

Will

  • **
  • 890 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2014, 11:25:55 am »
A robust view of divine providence would negate premise 2, virtually by definition.   
Will

7

Rick Dawkins

  • **
  • 817 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2014, 11:36:56 am »
isnt it somewhat unfair to say why you can beat the arguement?or say why you think you can? lol

8

Bertuzzi

  • ****
  • 8713 Posts
  • Check out my new blog!
    • View Profile
    • Capturing Christianity
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2014, 11:39:05 am »
isnt it somewhat unfair to say why you can beat the arguement?or say why you think you can? lol

Well, we're assuming they can avoid looking at this thread.
Husband. Father. Photographer. Blogger.

capturingchristianity.com

"No theodicy without eschatology." - Hick

9

E

  • ***
  • 1886 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2014, 11:40:31 am »
isnt it somewhat unfair to say why you can beat the arguement?or say why you think you can? lol

No, because we are working under the assumption that the two participants of the debate won't peek into this thread until it ends.
I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. Philippians 4:11 NIV

10

wonderer

  • *****
  • 14999 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2014, 11:41:49 am »
isnt it somewhat unfair to say why you can beat the arguement?or say why you think you can? lol

Well, we're assuming they can avoid looking at this thread.

And even if they can't/don't avoid looking at this thread, what does it matter?  We want them each to present the best arguments they can, right?
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

11

Bertuzzi

  • ****
  • 8713 Posts
  • Check out my new blog!
    • View Profile
    • Capturing Christianity
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2014, 12:09:29 pm »
isnt it somewhat unfair to say why you can beat the arguement?or say why you think you can? lol

Well, we're assuming they can avoid looking at this thread.

And even if they can't/don't avoid looking at this thread, what does it matter?  We want them each to present the best arguments they can, right?

We're also operating on the assumption that they are not limited to their own thoughts. It would be pretty silly to think they haven't sought the thoughts of professionals.
Husband. Father. Photographer. Blogger.

capturingchristianity.com

"No theodicy without eschatology." - Hick

12

jbejon

  • ***
  • 2610 Posts
    • View Profile
    • My Academia page
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2014, 12:33:40 pm »
Just wanted to start this thread for comments relating to the Debate between GR and Brett posted here.

We'll assume they won't check this thread until after the debate.

So, any thoughts on GR's opening statement?

It all turns on P2 I suppose.  I thought that GR's repeated likening of the claim that objective moral values exist to the claim that gratuitous suffering exists was a weakness.  It strikes me as apples and oranges.  The former is intuition-based.  The latter is, presumably, based on whether or not we see/realise commensurate goods.  To make the analogy more real, GR says that the theist moves from "objective moral values apparently exist" to "objective moral values do exist".  I've never heard anyone argue like that.

13

Bertuzzi

  • ****
  • 8713 Posts
  • Check out my new blog!
    • View Profile
    • Capturing Christianity
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2014, 01:39:18 pm »
Just wanted to start this thread for comments relating to the Debate between GR and Brett posted here.

We'll assume they won't check this thread until after the debate.

So, any thoughts on GR's opening statement?

It all turns on P2 I suppose.  I thought that GR's repeated likening of the claim that objective moral values exist to the claim that gratuitous suffering exists was a weakness.  It strikes me as apples and oranges.  The former is intuition-based.  The latter is, presumably, based on whether or not we see/realise commensurate goods.  To make the analogy more real, GR says that the theist moves from "objective moral values apparently exist" to "objective moral values do exist".  I've never heard anyone argue like that.

Well, I think that in the case of (1) we should be given a little more than a quote from a guy that thinks it's obvious :)
Husband. Father. Photographer. Blogger.

capturingchristianity.com

"No theodicy without eschatology." - Hick

14

Archsage

  • ****
  • 8964 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: DEBATE: Problem of Gratuitous Suffering - Comments Thread
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2014, 04:39:46 pm »
Just wanted to start this thread for comments relating to the Debate between GR and Brett posted here.

We'll assume they won't check this thread until after the debate.

So, any thoughts on GR's opening statement?

It all turns on P2 I suppose.  I thought that GR's repeated likening of the claim that objective moral values exist to the claim that gratuitous suffering exists was a weakness.  It strikes me as apples and oranges.  The former is intuition-based.  The latter is, presumably, based on whether or not we see/realise commensurate goods.  To make the analogy more real, GR says that the theist moves from "objective moral values apparently exist" to "objective moral values do exist".  I've never heard anyone argue like that.

Well, I think that in the case of (1) we should be given a little more than a quote from a guy that thinks it's obvious :)

Exactly what I was thinking, Bert. (1) is perhaps the most arguable premise and it got the least defense.
“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness..."  –Blaise Pascal