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Presumption of Atheism

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jakswan

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2015, 01:26:42 am »
Whether one is an atheist, theist, or agnostic the inescapable reality is that Something exists without a somehow.

No, you don't know if this is true.

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It strikes me as bizarre that atheists are so keen to point out how unnecessary and simplistic it is for the theist to invoke God as an explanation for physical reality when they themselves are forced to resort to logical absurdities

No if you don't know then don't offer an explanation.

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At this point any failure or refusal to acknowledge the simple truth that there is at least one supernatural brute fact reeks and smacks of deliberate obtuseness and extreme intellectual dishonesty.   

With respect atheists are not attempting to answer questions they can't possibly know the answers to with magical creatures.

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H.H.

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2015, 03:27:36 am »
No, you don't know if this is true.

It's one of the few things we can know for sure. There is absolutely no way around it, anything other than brute fact simply begs the question.


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With respect atheists are not attempting to answer questions they can't possibly know the answers to with magical creatures.

Anything that exists without a how is magical. Past eternal and ex nihilo are both magical explanations because they do not and cannot have a how. Any explanation of how just kicks the can a little further down the road but it will never lead to any ultimate explanation. Nature cannot account for Nature because nothing is self explaining, that's just not possible.

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jakswan

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2015, 03:34:09 am »
No, you don't know if this is true.

It's one of the few things we can know for sure. There is absolutely no way around it, anything other than brute fact simply begs the question.


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With respect atheists are not attempting to answer questions they can't possibly know the answers to with magical creatures.

Anything that exists without a how is magical. Past eternal and ex nihilo are both magical explanations because they do not and cannot have a how. Any explanation of how just kicks the can a little further down the road but it will never lead to any ultimate explanation. Nature cannot account for Nature because nothing is self explaining, that's just not possible.

My don't know doesn't make your guess correct.

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H.H.

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2015, 03:43:44 am »
No, you don't know if this is true.

It's one of the few things we can know for sure. There is absolutely no way around it, anything other than brute fact simply begs the question.


Quote
With respect atheists are not attempting to answer questions they can't possibly know the answers to with magical creatures.

Anything that exists without a how is magical. Past eternal and ex nihilo are both magical explanations because they do not and cannot have a how. Any explanation of how just kicks the can a little further down the road but it will never lead to any ultimate explanation. Nature cannot account for Nature because nothing is self explaining, that's just not possible.

My don't know doesn't make your guess correct.

Many atheist philosophers and physicists won't even argue this point. This whole thread is basically for the rank and file atheists that still don't get it. And it's not my assertion, I didn't come up with it, I got it from a Paul Davies interview and a Terrance Mckenna lecture, then I read a debate between Fesser and Parsons over at Patheos and Parsons was making the same point. Sean Carrol seems to be arguing along these lines as well when he says that reasons only apply within the universe and not to it.
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jakswan

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2015, 04:16:28 am »
Many atheist philosophers and physicists won't even argue this point. This whole thread is basically for the rank and file atheists that still don't get it. And it's not my assertion, I didn't come up with it, I got it from a Paul Davies interview and a Terrance Mckenna lecture, then I read a debate between Fesser and Parsons over at Patheos and Parsons was making the same point. Sean Carrol seems to be arguing along these lines as well when he says that reasons only apply within the universe and not to it.

I'm definitely not a cosmologist what I do know current knowledge of what exists outside of the universe is very limited. We know as much about this as a stone age man knew about Thunder, you are the same as the stone age men that claimed it was definitely angry gods causing the thunder.

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Booger

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2015, 10:35:44 am »
See what I mean, H.H.? Imagine how it is to ask the next logical question.
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H.H.

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2015, 10:51:47 am »
See what I mean, H.H.? Imagine how it is to ask the next logical question.

What's the next logical question?
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Booger

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2015, 11:44:42 am »
See what I mean, H.H.? Imagine how it is to ask the next logical question.

What's the next logical question?
See post #29. Theism doesn't stop with the recognition the inexplicable fact of existence. It takes it to the next step by asking "what must be in order for what is to be as it is?" and doesn't settle for "I don't know" or "chance."
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 11:51:13 am by Booger »
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jakswan

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2015, 12:26:43 pm »
See what I mean, H.H.? Imagine how it is to ask the next logical question.

What's the next logical question?
See post #29. Theism doesn't stop with the recognition the inexplicable fact of existence. It takes it to the next step by asking "what must be in order for what is to be as it is?" and doesn't settle for "I don't know" or "chance."

Its a bit like 'I don't know what caused the universe so I'll guess it was the invisible pink fairy, who would you believe shares exactly the same morals as me who are in fact are applicable to everyone.'

Very "logical" in my book.

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Booger

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2015, 02:05:49 pm »
See what I mean, H.H.? Imagine how it is to ask the next logical question.

What's the next logical question?
See post #29. Theism doesn't stop with the recognition the inexplicable fact of existence. It takes it to the next step by asking "what must be in order for what is to be as it is?" and doesn't settle for "I don't know" or "chance."

Its a bit like 'I don't know what caused the universe so I'll guess it was the invisible pink fairy, who would you believe shares exactly the same morals as me who are in fact are applicable to everyone.'

Very "logical" in my book.
"Cause" doesn't enter into the question at all. The point of the OP is that there is at least one thing that must be taken as brute fact. I followed it with a comment, question and an excerpt that deals directly with the implications.

It's of no concern of mine if you don't want to deal with the implications. Go ahead, build your house on a foundation of sand.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 03:06:30 pm by Booger »
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H.H.

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2015, 06:07:29 pm »

"Cause" doesn't enter into the question at all. The point of the OP is that there is at least one thing that must be taken as brute fact.

And that brute facts are just as magical as any supernatural accounting. I still don't see any reason to believe in God over the other possibilities, but the other possibilities aren't in any way rationally superior to a theistic explanation.



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I followed it with a comment, question and an excerpt that deals directly with the implications.

Thanks for that, I meant to respond but I got sidetracked. It seems to me that mysticism would be the only way to acquire knowledge in this area, but I don't think the knowledge obtained from mystical pursuits or revelations could really be a rational\intellectual sort of knowledge.
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H.H.

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2015, 06:24:07 pm »
See what I mean, H.H.? Imagine how it is to ask the next logical question.

What's the next logical question?
See post #29. Theism doesn't stop with the recognition the inexplicable fact of existence. It takes it to the next step by asking "what must be in order for what is to be as it is?" and doesn't settle for "I don't know" or "chance."

But then it's no longer a rational philosophy. When you do that you cross over into mystical theology. And I have no problem with that so long as everyone acknowledges that the premises and conclusions involved in this area can't be derived or accepted on purely rational grounds. 
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Booger

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2015, 06:35:29 pm »
I do not disagree with either of your posts. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree -- and I'm speaking as a theist.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 06:37:27 pm by Booger »
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H.H.

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2015, 08:42:57 pm »
I do not disagree with either of your posts. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree -- and I'm speaking as a theist.

I'll go one farther and say that none of the possibilities for ultimate origins are even available for rational consideration because they are all conceptually impossible. Seems like if there is anything that can be known about it then mysticism is probably the only viable means of getting at it.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 08:45:28 pm by H.H. »
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Booger

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Re: There is at least one impossible fact
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2015, 10:45:40 pm »
I do not disagree with either of your posts. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree -- and I'm speaking as a theist.

I'll go one farther and say that none of the possibilities for ultimate origins are even available for rational consideration because they are all conceptually impossible. Seems like if there is anything that can be known about it then mysticism is probably the only viable means of getting at it.
I concur. Plotinus, I'm sure, and the author of The Cloud of Unknowing would also concur. Also, I do not doubt that you do not see any reason to believe in God over other possibilities.

I would remind you, however, that the conscious mind is aware of only a small fraction of the information it receives. That means "mystical awareness" can occur at the unconscious level and raise to the surface in any number of conditioned ways. I think this can go a long way towards explaining the pervasiveness of religion throughout history and all cultures and its resistance to change and why the question at the end of the excerpt stands.

Mind can never hope to grasp the concept of an Absolute without first attempting to break the unity of such a reality. Mind is unifying of divergencies, but in the absence of such divergencies, mind finds no basis upon which to attempt to formulate understanding concepts.




« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 11:15:02 pm by Booger »
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