Archived

Craig vs Carroll

Read 52123 times

Poll

is atheism a belief system?

yes
21 (61.8%)
no
13 (38.2%)

Total Members Voted: 33

bippy123

  • **
  • 13 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #90 on: August 14, 2014, 07:21:56 am »
Wow, Congrats on getting this far in School my friend. A Phd is nothing to sneeze at. I wish you all the best in getting there. Good luck :)

1

bippy123

  • **
  • 13 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2014, 11:02:26 am »
Another little piece of evidence for the shroud is that forensic experts have determined that the Body is in a state of rigor mortis. How is this a clue to the historic Jesus and the empty tomb?

Rigor mortis is known to last up to around 40 hours.
How long did the gospels say Christ was in that tomb?
He was buried Friday evening and sunday morning the tomb was empty.
You guys do the math ;)

Here is an autopsy done on the man of the shroud by retired and former LA chief coroner Robert Bucklin.

https://www.shroud.com/bucklin.htm


The body structure is anatomically normal, representing a well-developed and well-nourished individual with clearly identifiable head, trunk, and extremities. The body appears to be in a state of rigor mortis which is evidenced by an overall stiffness as well as specific alterations in the appearance of the lower extremities from the posterior aspect. The imprint of the right calf is much more distinct than that of the left indicating that at the time of death the left leg was rotated in such a way that the sole of the left foot rested on the ventral surface of the right foot with resultant slight flexion of the left knee. That position was maintained after rigor mortis had developed.

After an overall inspection and description of the body image, the pathologist continues his examination in a sequential fashion beginning with the head and progressing to the feet. He will note that the deceased had long hair, which on the posterior image appears to be fashioned into a pigtail or braid type configuration. There also is a short beard which is forked in the middle. In the frontal view, a ring of puncture tracks is noted to involve the scalp. One of these has the configuration of a letter "3". Blood has issued from these punctures into the hair and onto the skin of the forehead. The dorsal view shows that the puncture wounds extend around the occipital portion of the scalp in the manner of a crown. The direction of the blood flow, both anterior and posterior, is downward. In the midline of the forehead is a square imprint giving the appearance of an object resting on the skin. There is a distinct abrasion at the tip of the nose and the right cheek is distinctly swollen as compared with the left cheek. Both eyes appear to be closed, but on very close inspection, rounded foreign objects can be noted on the imprint in the area of the right and left eyes.

Upon examining the chest, the pathologist notes a large blood stain over the right pectoral area Close examination shows a variance in intensity of the stain consistent with the presence of two types of fluid, one comprised of blood, and the other resembling water. There is distinct evidence of a gravitational effect on this stain with the blood flowing downward and without spatter of other evidence of the projectile activity which would be expected from blood issuing from a functional arterial source. This wound has all the characteristics of a postmortem type flow of blood from a body cavity or from an organ such as the heart. At the upper plane of the wound is an ovoid skin defect which is characteristic of a penetrating track produced by a sharp puncturing instrument.

There seems to be an increase in the anteroposterior diameter of the chest due to bilateral expansion.

The abdomen is flat, and the right and left arms are crossed over the mid and lower abdomen. The genitalia cannot be identified.

By examination of the arms, forearms, wrists, and hands, the pathologist notes that the left hand overlies the right wrist On the left wrist area is a distinct puncture-type injury which has two projecting rivulets derived from a central source and separated by about a 10 degree angle. As it appears in the image, the rivulets extend in a horizontal direction. The pathologist realizes that this blood flow could not have happened with the arms in the position as he sees them during his examination, and he must reconstruct the position of the arms in such a way as to place them where they would have to be to account for gravity in the direction of the blood flow. His calculations to that effect would indicate that the arms would have to be outstretched upward at about a 65 degree angle with the horizontal. The pathologist observes that there are blood flows which extend in a direction from wrists toward elbows on the right and left forearms. These flows can be readily accounted for my the position of the arms which he has just determined.

As he examines the fingers, he notes that both the right and left hands have left imprints of only four fingers. The thumbs are not clearly obvious. This would suggest to the pathologist that there has been some damage to a nerve which would result in flexion of the thumb toward the palm.

As he examines the lower extremities, the medical examiner derives most of his information from the posterior imprint of the body. He notes that there is a reasonably clear outline of the right foot made by the sole of that foot having been covered with blood and leaving an imprint which reflects the heal as well as the toes. The left foot imprint is less clear and it is also noticeable that the left calf imprint is unclear. This supports the opinion that the left leg had been rotated and crossed over the right instep in such a way that an incomplete foot print was formed. In the center of the right foot imprint, a definite punctate defect can be noted. This puncture is consistent with an object having penetrated the structures of the feet, and from the position of the feet the conclusion would be reasonable that the same object penetrated both feet after the left foot had been placed over the right.

As the back image is examined, it becomes quite clear that there is a series of traumatic injuries which extend from the shoulder areas to the lower portion of the back, the buttocks, and the backs of the calves. These images are bifid and appear to have been made by some type of object applied as a whip, leaving dumbbell-shaped imprints in the skin from which blood has issued. The direction of the injuries is from lateral toward medial and downward suggesting that the whip was applied by someone standing behind the individual.

An interesting finding is noted over the shoulder blade area on the right and left sides. This consists of an abrasion or denuding of the skin surfaces, consistent with a heavy object, like a beam. Resting over the shoulder blades and producing a rubbing effect on the skin surfaces.

With this information available to him, the forensic pathologist can come to a reasonable conclusion as to the circumstances of death, including the posture of the deceased at the time the injuries were incurred. Chronologically, the whip like injuries to the back would have occurred earlier than other injuries which the pathologist has found. The individual would have been upright and with his arms above his head at the time the whipping occurred since no whip marks are found on the upper extremities.

The position of the puncture defects in the wrist, coupled with the blood flow towards the elbows, and also associated with the punctures of the feet, permit the pathologist to conclude that the victim was in an upright position with his arms extended when the blood flow took place. A crucifixion type posture would be the most plausible explanation for these findings.

The wound in the right side, since is comprised of both blood and non-blood components, suggests to the forensic pathologist that the puncturing instrument released a watery type fluid from the body cavities as well as blood from the heart area. One potential consideration would be that there was fluid in the chest cavity which was released by the penetrating instrument and this was followed by blood issuing from an area as the result of the heart being perforated.

At this point, the pathologist has garnered much information about the injuries to the body from a purely objective point of view. As a knowledgeable and expertly trained forensic pathologist he has the right and obligation to rely upon available historical and other evidentiary information in order to support or deny his impressions. He will avail himself of other scientific testing, including radiological studies and hematological and chemical testing of the substances which he has found on the body. By these tests, he will be able to confirm the presence of blood. He may also make other observations based on microscopic and genetic studies.

It is the ultimate responsibility of the medical examiner to confirm by whatever means are available to him the identity of the deceased, as well as to determine the manner of this death. In the case of Man on the Shroud, the forensic pathologist will have information relative to the circumstances of death by crucifixion which he can support by his anatomic findings. He will be aware that the individual whose image is depicted on the cloth has undergone puncture injuries to his wrists and feet, puncture injuries to his head, multiple traumatic whip-like injuries to his back and postmortem puncture injury to his chest area which has released both blood and a water type of fluid. From this data, it is not an unreasonable conclusion for the forensic pathologist to determine that only one person historically has undergone this sequence of events. That person is Jesus Christ.

As far as the mechanism of death is concerned, a detailed study of the Shroud imprint and the blood stains, coupled with a basic understanding of the physical and physiological changes in the body that take place during crucifixion, suggests strongly that the decedent had undergone postural asphyxia as the result of his position during the crucifixion episode. There is also evidence of severe blood loss from the skin wounds as well as fluid accumulation in the chest cavities related to terminal cardio-respiratory failure.

For the manner of death to be determined, a full investigation of the circumstances of death is necessary. In this case, it would be determined historically that the individual was sentenced to death, and that the execution was carried out by crucifixion. The manner of death would be classed as judicial homicide.

In summary, I have presented a scenario, based on reasonable medical probability, as to how a forensic pathologist medical examiner would conduct an examination of the Shroud of Turin image and the conclusions that he would reach as the result of such studies.

2

dorel

  • **
  • 61 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2014, 11:55:07 am »
Quote
if i throw a coin is not obvious that it will be heads or tails
i may believe that will be heads
you may believe that will be tails
other may say, i don´t know what will be.

I think you mix in hope in your definition of belief.
"Either you accept something as true, you are uncertain, or you do not accept it as true, and if you hold one of these positions, you need to bring something new to the table to change the position."
here we try to answer a question with an uncertain response namely if god exist.
you have right we can accept, reject or be uncertain when we try to answer this question
the uncertain or "i don't know" posicion is not a committed posicion.
if you are an atheist-believe, you choose to commit yourself to the "god not exist" position, obviously you cannot prove it.
if you are an theist-believer , you choose to commit yourself to the "god exist" position, obviously this also is unprovable.
the choice is obvious in each case

3

TylerBlack

  • *
  • 3 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2015, 11:28:36 am »
No because atheism is just the absence of belief in any deities. Therefore it isn't a philosophy, ideology or world-view. It doesn't tell you to do anything, it's a response to a claim.

4

Math

  • *
  • 1 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2015, 03:38:37 pm »
Is atheism a belief system?

I think so.  Although I realize that not all atheists embrace the same belief system, no more than all theists. 

Unless a person makes no distinction between atheism and agnosticism, atheism is definitely a view that believes that there is no god.  I don't see any way of getting around this for the non-religious atheist who argues for a naturalistic worldview. 

There are reputable dictionaries, including writings of renown atheists, who would also agree with what I've stated.  Unless a person makes no distinction between atheism and agnosticism, with reference to deity, I don't see how it's rational to not think of atheism as being a belief that affirms that there is no God or gods.  And atheists who disagree, I think should call themselves agnostics.

5

lucious

  • ***
  • 4649 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2015, 01:44:39 am »
Is it a "system"? Not sure. It's a belief--belief that God does not exist.


Does this entail various corollary positions, philosophically? Yes. Must these be examined for plausibility and coherence? Yes.

6

Asherah-deceased

  • ***
  • 2486 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #96 on: November 03, 2015, 08:45:48 pm »
I think atheism is an ontological commitment, but not a belief system.

7

Huskqa

  • **
  • 211 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #97 on: December 31, 2015, 09:35:48 am »
No, off course it is not. By definition Atheism is the lack of a belief. Atheism is as much of a belief as a lack of money is also some kind of money.

8

Lion IRC

  • ***
  • 2233 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2016, 05:26:08 am »
Atheists think there isnt a God.

Theists think there is a God

Why is one a belief and not the other?
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.

9

jakswan

  • ***
  • 1623 Posts
    • View Profile
    • Bloggy Blog
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2016, 07:32:16 am »
Atheists think there isnt a God.

Theists think there is a God

Why is one a belief and not the other?

because not playing football isn't a sport.

10

Lion IRC

  • ***
  • 2233 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2016, 01:32:40 pm »
Hang on.
It's not as though atheists aren't kicking the ball around the same AvT 'football field' as the theist.
It is a contest of ideas.
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.

11

jakswan

  • ***
  • 1623 Posts
    • View Profile
    • Bloggy Blog
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2016, 06:00:58 pm »
Hang on.
It's not as though atheists aren't kicking the ball around the same AvT 'football field' as the theist.
It is a contest of ideas.

No atheism is a lack of belief. Secularism and humanism are beliefs. The Romans called Christians atheists, you I presume are an atheist relative to Islam. 

12

Lion IRC

  • ***
  • 2233 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #102 on: January 04, 2016, 09:00:53 pm »
How is it that atheists can write entire books/volumes about what they 'lack' belief in?
Why the need for conferences to discuss non-stamp collecting?
What do you make of the word "atheology"? Michel Onfray wrote an entire book about it.

...and no, I'm not an atheist in respect to Islam. They think Noah was a real person. (Just like Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Abraham, Job, Lot, etc.) They think God gave Moses the 10 commandments. They actually revere Jesus more highly than Moses.
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.

13

jakswan

  • ***
  • 1623 Posts
    • View Profile
    • Bloggy Blog
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2016, 03:33:02 am »
How is it that atheists can write entire books/volumes about what they 'lack' belief in?
Why the need for conferences to discuss non-stamp collecting?
What do you make of the word "atheology"? Michel Onfray wrote an entire book about it.

You seriously don't understand or are you being obtuse?

Quote
...and no, I'm not an atheist in respect to Islam. They think Noah was a real person. (Just like Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Abraham, Job, Lot, etc.) They think God gave Moses the 10 commandments. They actually revere Jesus more highly than Moses.

Ok someone who claims to be Muslim and a Christian, not come across that before.

14

Lion IRC

  • ***
  • 2233 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: is atheism a belief system?
« Reply #104 on: January 05, 2016, 05:59:20 am »
obtuse
adjective
- annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

And please don't verbal me. I never claimed to be both a Christian and a Muslim.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 06:02:09 am by Lion IRC »
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.