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HaWeHa

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The Physical Laws
« on: August 08, 2014, 09:42:41 am »
Salut from Germany,

I am inclined to identify G-D, actually THE G-Ds,
with the Physical Laws.
Hitherto I could not retrieve evidence that...
1)the Holy scripture claims that the Abrahamic (Mono) G-D created the Physical Laws
2)Science claims that the Physical Laws came into existence
3)the Physical Laws can evolve.

If you take me for a troll so be it.
Actually I am dead serious.
I simply abstain from identifying G-D(s) with "immaterial PERSON(s)"
that's all.

I am primarily interested in all suggestions which indicate that the Abrahamic G-D created the Physical Laws
Thank you in advance.

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joppe

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 03:15:56 am »
How could the physical laws evolve? And what would it even mean?
Saying you 'merely lack belief' in God while arguing for naturalism is the same as saying you 'don't have a political opinion' while praising a political party.

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HaWeHa

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 08:40:09 am »
This means that they are NON-mutable over time.
They will likely not vanish - no "OMEGA" to be expected
This for itself suggests they were never created in the first place (from NON-existence to existence)
"No ALPHA"


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joppe

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2014, 10:07:45 am »
So, would you say that they aren't part of the universe? Universe has a beginning and thus has beginning. If universe is all matter, time and space that exists, then wouldn't laws of physics have beginning as well?
Saying you 'merely lack belief' in God while arguing for naturalism is the same as saying you 'don't have a political opinion' while praising a political party.

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HaWeHa

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2015, 04:42:16 pm »
Hello Dear Friend,
I am actually more interested WHAT the nature of "G-D" is.
as a Reborn ATheist I just reject all THOSE Creator G-Ds which evolved during the history of mankind.

It appears that it is just due to the low activity on this forum, that NOBODY ever came up here, with a rejection of my identification of the Physical Laws with the Creator G-Ds at the root of the Physical world.

I had a hard time, to accept, from two Physicists elsewhere, that the Physical laws are just generalizing descriptions about the behavior of the Physical world.

The inescapable conclusion is, that the Physical laws were CREATED by the human brain.

The physical world just behaves-on-its-own yet provides us wuith an illusion namely as-if-behaving, namely governed by the Physical Laws.

Our thoughts, sensations, emotions, morality, but also numbers (1, 2, 3,...), aequations, but also LEGAL-Laws and Physical-Laws are all concepts, created by the human brain.
All that we call "reality" is a fabrication by our brain, a fraction from material templates and material phaenomena and another fraction from the brain on its own.

The NUMBER as well as the NATURE of the possibly-actual / actually-possible Creator G-Ds at the root of the Physical world are likely unknowable.

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2016, 03:26:30 pm »
Physical laws are just descriptions of the universe. Obviously, such description presumes that what it describes, the universe, must exist. Aren't we going in circles, logically speaking?

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loganonekenobi

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2016, 03:48:41 pm »
We can observe the physical laws.  Over time we have become better at observing the physical laws than those that wrote the Bible.  The creator myths are many and all claim that they are truth. It just so happens that christianity won out in Europe and thus spread to America.  If Hindi had been more war like then we would be questioning if Shiva really did make the universe.
In gravity we pray...amen.

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kravarnik

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2016, 04:32:36 am »
We can observe the physical laws.  Over time we have become better at observing the physical laws than those that wrote the Bible.  The creator myths are many and all claim that they are truth. It just so happens that christianity won out in Europe and thus spread to America.  If Hindi had been more war like then we would be questioning if Shiva really did make the universe.
In gravity we pray...amen.

I think that's false, to be honest. We observe things in existence interacting, and when there are regularities in these interactions we infere there's a rule/law by which that happens.

Also, your representation of history is overlisimplified. "It just happens that Christianity won out in Europe..." what? It just happened? What stops me from saying "it just happens this way(for no reason)," when you say "there are physical laws that regulate?"

Well, since something takes place, there's a reason for it. And saying "it just happens," means that something happened, because its inherent probability to happen, without any other reason - basically, chance. This is also false. When millions of people come to embrace a certain belief, or view, of reality and do it by huge numbers, for tens of centuries, there's usually a reason.

You seem to be overlysimplifying facts of reality, so that they may become consistent with your narrative of how you view things happened. When millions of people hold to certain view of reality for thousands of years, it usually has a reason. And not simply "it just happened."
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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loganonekenobi

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2016, 10:35:38 am »
we can observe the physical laws.  This is true.  We have become better at doing so.  This is also true due to advancements in technology and better information sharing.  If you doubt that just look look at your computer and remember that you are living in the information age and your ancestors lived through the renaissance.
If I over simplify it is due to trying to get to the heart of the matter instead of going on and on. I wont be drawn into a semantic debate when truly the facts are easily present.
as far as why we are hear debating on the Christian subject instead of a say the Hindu subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization
since it was a primarily European phenomena any where the Europeans went so did Christianity.  Sometimes the conversion was voluntary sometimes it was not especially latter when the religion held power.

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kravarnik

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2016, 01:53:36 am »
we can observe the physical laws.  This is true.  We have become better at doing so.  This is also true due to advancements in technology and better information sharing.  If you doubt that just look look at your computer and remember that you are living in the information age and your ancestors lived through the renaissance.
If I over simplify it is due to trying to get to the heart of the matter instead of going on and on. I wont be drawn into a semantic debate when truly the facts are easily present.
as far as why we are hear debating on the Christian subject instead of a say the Hindu subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization
since it was a primarily European phenomena any where the Europeans went so did Christianity.  Sometimes the conversion was voluntary sometimes it was not especially latter when the religion held power.

The fact that "it just happened," isn't easily present. Please, if you want to claim something as true(in this case "Christianity just happened to have won out in Europe - without any additional reason"), then provide the evidence and don't dismiss what the opposition says through rhetorics("the facts are such").

We are debating the Christian subject, because it's the religion with the richest intellectual tradition and the most well-articulated defenses/offenses, which are done in accordance to principles of logic, scholarly criteria and the likes. It's not based on "mysticism," or some "mysterious ways," to which you cannot object to, or with which you cannot argue. You can argue against and for the basic tenets of Christianity through rational argumentation. The very same could be said for very, very few other religions, if any.


And, once again, you don't observe physical laws. You observe physical stuff interacting and when enough expiremntation and observation is done, which consistently point out toward a regularity of some sort, a physical law is inferred. But no one has ever observed a law. That would mean that physical laws are in and of themselves "empirical(observable and being able to be interacted with through our senses)." They aren't. They are thought of as abstract mathematical regularities, which regulate how physical stuff in existence interact.


Try to be more substansive. Saying an ideology, which was held by milions, for tens of centuries, simply "happened to win out in X region," is a laughable claim, without any substance. And then saying the case is such, because the facts pointing toward it "are easily present" is again an assertion, which adds no substance, nor support. You are simplifying complex and difficult subjects. People have hard time discerning the cause of modern day events, and you say with such ease that Christianity "just happened." I mean... come on, I am sure you are better than this.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 01:55:27 am by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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Bill McEnaney

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Re: The Physical Laws
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2016, 06:20:38 pm »
Maybe we need to discover what any law of nature is in itself.  Some scientists think it's a statement that describes a regularity.  But if a law of nature  what describes happens in the natural world, it doesn't cause what it describes.  Laws of nature predated descriptions because they predated human language.  That's why I need someone to answer a question for me: Is a law of nature a regularity, or does it cause one?  To have regularities, you need causality in itself. Laws of nature presuppose that causality in itself exists, and if there's a God some causes are non-natural.