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Nature of God

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toty

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2014, 03:46:52 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5eIr9ZUfm4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz2BqVoTx78
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aleph naught

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2014, 01:10:40 pm »
Allah doesn't exist.

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toty

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2014, 03:49:07 am »
Allah doesn't exist.

YES - the existence of the Creator cannot be proved in a test tube. However, if one can accept a man his / her father, because the woman who gave him / her birth say so - so why not accept the existence of a 'supernatural Power' if someone who is not Bill

Clinton or Elizbeth Taylor, say so ??



Allah
Right
The Merciful
Has no father or mother or Wife
No partner with him in power
One
Owner of the heavens and the earth
Glorify him all creatures
God
That does not drink
That does not sleep
That does not eat
God says in the Quran




(255) Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by   His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kurs extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.


1) Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One
(2) Allah , the Eternal Refuge
(3) He neither begets nor is born


60. Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)!

61. Is not He (better than your gods) Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water).Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but most of them know not.

62. Is not He (better than your gods) Who responds to the distressed one, when he calls Him, and Who removes the evil, and makes you inheritors of the earth, generations after generations. Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Little is that you remember!

63. Is not He (better than your gods) Who guides you in the darkness of the land and the sea, and Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain)? Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? High Exalted be Allah above all that they associate as partners (to Him)!

64. Is not He (better than your so-called gods) Who originates creation, and shall thereafter repeat it, and Who provides for you from heaven and earth? Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvQd6Y5OmoI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiRsyes_q8o
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toty

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2014, 03:53:49 am »
Is There Evidence God Exists?

Yes. Allah has sent down miracles, revelations and messengers to give clear proofs He exists and more important, what we should do once we come to this realization.

Allah has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages for people to be able to clearly see with their own eyes and to be able to use their own senses the miracles and proofs pointing to the fact, Allah does in fact, exist.

Miracles of prophets and messengers of Allah have come to people through the ages. Moses (peace be upon him) showed many miracles to pharaoh and to the children of Israel. Plagues, locusts, water turning to blood, his stick becoming a snake, the voice in the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea are clear miracles for the people of Moses time.

Again, Allah sent Jesus, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) with clear miracles for the people of his time. Speaking from the cradle while still a new born infant, creating birds from clay, curing the sick, giving sight to the blind and even bringing a dead man back to life, were all clear signs to the people to know Jesus (peace be upon him) was a messenger of Allah as was Moses before him.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last and final messenger of Allah, and he was sent to all of mankind. Allah sent him with a number of miracles, not the least of which was the Quran. The predictions and prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) have come true even in this century and the Quran has been used to convince even scientists of the existence of Allah.
[Please visit "Science Proves Allah": Watch video of famous scientists admit Quran is from Allah and even accept Islam]

The Quran is the best of proofs for the existence of Allah and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.

No one sees or hears Allah, not even the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize this entire universe could not possibly come into existence on its own. Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. This is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something we can understand.

We know from the teachings of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the proofs for the existence of God (Allah) are most obvious to us in our everyday surroundings. Anyone with understanding would quickly acknowledge His existence provided they are not so stubborn as to ignore the obvious evidences right in front of us.

We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.).
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aleph naught

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2014, 10:34:08 am »
Is There Evidence God Exists?

Yes. Allah has sent down miracles, revelations and messengers to give clear proofs He exists and more important, what we should do once we come to this realization.

Allah has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages for people to be able to clearly see with their own eyes and to be able to use their own senses the miracles and proofs pointing to the fact, Allah does in fact, exist.

Miracles of prophets and messengers of Allah have come to people through the ages. Moses (peace be upon him) showed many miracles to pharaoh and to the children of Israel. Plagues, locusts, water turning to blood, his stick becoming a snake, the voice in the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea are clear miracles for the people of Moses time.

Again, Allah sent Jesus, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) with clear miracles for the people of his time. Speaking from the cradle while still a new born infant, creating birds from clay, curing the sick, giving sight to the blind and even bringing a dead man back to life, were all clear signs to the people to know Jesus (peace be upon him) was a messenger of Allah as was Moses before him.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last and final messenger of Allah, and he was sent to all of mankind. Allah sent him with a number of miracles, not the least of which was the Quran. The predictions and prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) have come true even in this century and the Quran has been used to convince even scientists of the existence of Allah.
[Please visit "Science Proves Allah": Watch video of famous scientists admit Quran is from Allah and even accept Islam]

The Quran is the best of proofs for the existence of Allah and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.

No one sees or hears Allah, not even the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize this entire universe could not possibly come into existence on its own. Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. This is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something we can understand.

We know from the teachings of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the proofs for the existence of God (Allah) are most obvious to us in our everyday surroundings. Anyone with understanding would quickly acknowledge His existence provided they are not so stubborn as to ignore the obvious evidences right in front of us.

We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.).

What do you mean by 'evidence'? Generally people mean some sort of conditional probabilistic fact: Pr(e | Islam) >> Pr(e | ~Islam), or Pr(Islam | e) >> Pr(Islam).

But I see nothing in that post that would match up with a commonsense understanding of 'evidence'.

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toty

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2014, 03:38:46 am »
Order in the Universe

When we reflect upon the nature of our world, we see order everywhere from the water cycle to the movement of the earth around the sun.  Commenting on the order found in the universe, the physicist Stephen Hawking explains that the overwhelming impression ‘‘is one of order, the more we discover about the universe, the more we find that it is governed by rational laws.’’[1]  This observation is shared by the vast majority of scientists.

Since the universe has order and is governed by the ‘laws of science’, we should question how this order came about.  The most effective way to answer this question is to reason to the best conclusion.  Take your mobile phone for example, your phone is made of glass, plastic and metal.  Glass comes from sand, plastic comes from oil and metal is extracted from the ground.  Imagine you were walking in a desert (where there is lots of oil, sand and metals in the ground), and you found a mobile phone lying around.  Would you believe that it came together by itself? That the Sun shone, the wind blew, lightning struck, the oil bubbled to the surface and mixed with the sand and metal, and over millions of years the mobile came together by chance?

No one would believe such an explanation.  A mobile phone is clearly something that was put together in an organized way, so it would be rational to believe that it must have an organizer.  In the same way, when we see the order in the universe, isn’t it rational to say that the universe also has been organized in an amazing way by some being?

This organization is best explained by the existence of God.  God is the one who brought about the order in the universe.
Beginning of the Universe

If something has always existed it doesn’t need a creator.  In the first part of the 20th century some physicists held the view that the universe had always existed.  If the universe had always existed it wouldn’t need a creator.

However, according to Cosmology the universe had a beginning some 14 billion years ago with a cosmic event commonly known as the ‘Big Bang’[2].

Imagine you heard a loud bang, and you asked ‘where did that sound come from?’ Would you be satisfied with the answer that it came from ‘nothing’ and it ‘just happened?’ Of course not!  You would say ‘what was the cause of that loud bang?’ In the same way, rationally the ‘Big Bang’ must also have a cause that bought it about.  Now we can ask since the ‘Big Bang’ has a cause, what was the cause of that cause? Then we can ask, what was the cause of that cause? And so on and so on.  But this can’t go on forever and must end with a first cause, because of the following example:

Imagine a sniper who has just found his target and calls back to base to get permission to shoot.  The person at the base tells the sniper to hold on while they seek permission from someone else higher up.  So the guy higher up seeks permission from the guy even higher up and so on and so on.  If this goes on forever, will the sniper ever get to shoot the target?

The obvious answer is that he wouldn’t be able to shoot.  The only way the sniper can shoot is if someone gives permission without asking for anyone else’s permission.  That person would be the first cause of the sniper shooting.  In the same way, the Big Bang must have a first cause.

We can conclude that this first cause must be powerful as it brought the whole universe into existence, and it must be intelligent as it caused the ‘laws of science’ which govern the universe.  Also, this first cause must be timeless, spaceless and immaterial, because time, space and matter began at the ‘Big Bang’.  Finally, since it is uncaused it must have always existed.

All of these attributes of the first cause make up the basic concept of God.  God is the uncreated first cause of the universe.
Human Nature

Throughout the history of the world, the majority of people have believed in God.  There seems to be something built in the human mind that makes us want to believe.

Over the last decade some really startling facts have been found that show that children have an innate belief in God.  Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford Centre for Anthropology and Mind, states “The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children’s minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose…” He adds that “If we threw a handful [of children] on an island and they raised themselves…they would believe in God”[3].  To put it simply, his answer as to why anyone would believe in God is that, our minds are designed to do so.  Disbelief in God is something which is unnatural to the human being.  Oxford University development psychologist Dr Olivera Petrovich, who is an expert in the Psychology of Religion states that, belief in God develops naturally and that “atheism is definitely an acquired position”[4].

So where did this natural belief in a creator come from?  We can’t say it is taught by society as this belief is innate, and studies show that it is independent of societal pressures and is cross-cultural[5].

The best explanation for this belief is that God has instilled it into humanity.You have just read three independent reasons why it makes sense to believe in God.  Belief in God is not only rational but it’s also part of human nature.  There are many questions raised by the existence of God, such as why is there evil and suffering in the world? Doesn’t evolution disprove God? Do we have a purpose in life? All these issues and more will be answered in future articles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quwh5V6yXEg
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toty

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2014, 01:34:09 am »


What do you mean by 'evidence'? Generally people mean some sort of conditional probabilistic fact: Pr(e | Islam) >> Pr(e | ~Islam), or Pr(Islam | e) >> Pr(Islam).

But I see nothing in that post that would match up with a commonsense understanding of 'evidence'.
[/quote]




evidence '?
Because God exists without a doubt

There is a car maker
There is a chair maker
 one of the people said the car
Found without  maker
People will say
  This crazy guy
So
God created human
It can not create himself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzqB2dROfZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJHzwJrRC08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7wtmtuygPg
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aleph naught

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2014, 04:18:46 pm »


What do you mean by 'evidence'? Generally people mean some sort of conditional probabilistic fact: Pr(e | Islam) >> Pr(e | ~Islam), or Pr(Islam | e) >> Pr(Islam).

But I see nothing in that post that would match up with a commonsense understanding of 'evidence'.




evidence '?
Because God exists without a doubt

There is a car maker
There is a chair maker
 one of the people said the car
Found without  maker
People will say
  This crazy guy
So
God created human
It can not create himself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzqB2dROfZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJHzwJrRC08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7wtmtuygPg
[/quote]

You've presupposed that humans were created. What justification do you have for this?

8

toty

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2014, 03:37:19 am »

You've presupposed that humans were created. What justification do you have for this?
[/quote]


Islam provides us with the astonishing details of the creation of Adam[1].  Both Christian and Jewish traditions are remarkably similar yet importantly different to the Quran.  The Book of Genesis describes Adam as being made from “the dust of the earth,” and in the Talmud, Adam is described as being kneaded from mud.

And God said to the angels:

“‘Verily, I am going to place mankind generations after generations on earth.’  They said: ‘Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.’  God said: ‘I know that which you do not know.’” (Quran 2:30)

So begins the story of Adam, the first man, the first human being.  God created Adam from a handful of soil containing portions from all its varieties on Earth.  Angels were sent to earth to collect the soil that was to become Adam.  It was red, white, brown, and black; it was soft and malleable, hard and gritty; it came from the mountains and the valleys; from infertile deserts and lush fertile plains and all the natural varieties in between.  The descendants of Adam were destined to be as diverse as the handful of soil from which their ancestor was created; all have different appearances, attributes and qualities.
Soil or Clay?

Throughout the Quran, the soil used to create Adam is referred to by many names, and from this we are able to understand some of the methodology of his creation.  Each name for soil is used at a different stage of Adam’s creation.  Soil, taken from the earth, is referred to as soil; God also refers to it as clay.  When it is mixed with water it becomes mud, when it is left to stand the water content reduces and it becomes sticky clay (or mud).  If it is again left for some time it begins to smell, and the colour becomes darker – black, smooth clay.  It was from this substance that God moulded the form of Adam.  His soulless body was left to dry, and it became what is known in the Quran as sounding clay.  Adam was moulded from something akin to potter’s clay.  When it is rapped it produces a ringing sound.[2]
The First Man is Honoured

And God said, to the Angels:

“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.  So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (Quran 38:71-72)

God honoured the first humman, Adam, in countless ways.  Allah blew his soul into him, He fashioned him with His own hands and He ordered the Angels to bow down before him.  And God said to the Angels:

“....Prostrate to Adam and they prostrated except Iblees (Satan)....” (Quran 7:11)

While worship is reserved for God Alone this prostration by the Angels to Adam was a sign of respect and honour.  It is said that, as Adam’s body trembled into life, he sneezed and immediately said ‘All praise and thanks is due to God;’ so God responded by bestowing His Mercy upon Adam.  Although this account is not mentioned in either the Quran or the authentic narrations of the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, it is mentioned in some commentaries of the Quran.  Thus, in his first seconds of life, the first man is recognized as an honoured creature, covered with the infinite Mercy of God.[3]

It was also said by the Prophet Muhammad that God created Adam in His image.[4] This does not mean that Adam was created to look similar to God, as God is unique in all His aspects, we are unable to comprehend or form an image of Him.  It does mean, however, that Adam was given some qualities which also God has, although incomparable.  He was given qualities of mercy, love, free will, and others.
The First Greeting

Adam was instructed to approach a group of Angels sitting near to him and greet them with the words Assalamu alaikum (May God’s peace be upon you), they answered ‘and also upon you be God’s peace, mercy and blessings’.  From that day forward these words became the greeting of those submitted to God.  From the moment of Adam’s creation, we his descendents were instructed to spread peace.
Adam, the Caretaker

God told mankind that He did not create them except that they should worship Him.  Everything in this world was created for Adam and his descendants, in order to aid us in our ability to worship and know God.  Due to God’s infinite Wisdom, Adam and his descendants were to be the caretakers on earth, so God taught Adam what he needed to know to perform this duty.  God mentions:

“He taught Adam all the names of everything.” (Quran 2:31)

God gave Adam the ability to identify and designate names to everything; He taught him language, speech and the ability to communicate.  God imbued Adam with an insatiable need for and love of knowledge.  After Adam had learned the names and uses for all things God said to the Angels...

“‘tell me the names of these if you are truthful.’  They answered ‘Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what You have taught us.  Verily it is You the All Knower, the All Wise.’” (Quran 2:31-32)

God turned to Adam and said:

“‘O Adam!  Inform them of their names,’ and when he had informed them of their names, He said:  Did I not tell you that I know the unseen in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been hiding?” (Quran 2:33)

Adam tried to speak with the Angels, but they were occupied worshipping God.  The Angels were given no specific knowledge or freedom of will, their sole purpose being to worship and praise God.  Adam, on the other hand, was given the ability to reason, make choices and identify objects and their purpose.  This helped to prepare Adam for his coming role on earth.  So Adam knew the names of everything, but he was alone in Heaven.  One morning Adam awoke to find a woman gazing at him.[5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xLVbDYwSA0
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aleph naught

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2014, 09:05:33 pm »
So what you're saying is that you have absolutely no justification for your claims.

10

Broncrider

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2015, 10:57:41 am »
     Jews are no exception and consumption of alcohol is prohibited for them also. According to Mosaic Law no fermented beverages are allowed during the Passover feast.

“Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread; On the first day you shall put away leaven out of your houses, for if any one eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.” Exodus 12: 15 (RSV)

“Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the Lord. Unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days; no leavened bread shall be seen with you, and no leaven shall be seen with you in all territory.”Exodus 13: 6-7 (RSV)

As we can see there is no mention of wine or any fermented drinks in the Mosaic Law cited above.

Toty,
     How in the world can you comment that 'there is no mention of wine or any fermented drinks in the Mosaic Law cited above' and then based on those exact same verses state that alcohol is prohibited for Jews during Passover? According to this website (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/a-gentiles-guide-to-keeping-kosher-for-passover-165359211/?no-ist) "all beer and most liquor is forbidden. The only alcohol allowed is wine, of which there are kosher-for-Passover varieties". 



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Broncrider

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2015, 11:01:00 am »

Jesus Christ , peace be upon him

Did not drink wine never in his life

Toty,
     Strange, then, that Jesus' first miracle (Jn2:1-11) is to change water to wine at a wedding feast. 

12

toty

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2015, 04:04:13 am »
CHRISTIANS

Christians drink because they believe that there is nothing wrong when one drinks moderately alcoholic beverages. They even support their claim through medical research, that moderate drinking is good for the heart. They support their claim by stating that Jesus Christ (PBUH= peace be upon him) made fermented wine at the wedding in Cana; That he approved of intoxicant drinks in the parable of new wine skins and old wine; That he admitted to drinking wine in describing his lifestyle (”eating and drinking”). And by instituting the cup of the Lord’s Supper he commanded its use until eternity. In otherwords for the Christians, Jesus's (PBUH) example and teachings form the belief and practice. Logically and rationally if wine was good for Jesus (PBUH) it is also good for his followers.

"The Biblical terms for wine (yayin in Hebrew and oinos in Greek) are used in Scripture to refer to the juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented. This significant finding discredits the popular claim that the Bible knows only fermented wine, which it approves when used moderately. The truth of the matter is that the Bible knows both fermented wine, which it disapproves, and unfermented grape juice, which it approves.

Some of the reasons Scripture condemns the use of alcoholic beverages are that they distort the perception of reality (Is 28:7; Prov 23:33); they impair the capacity to make moral, responsible decisions (Lev 10:9-11); they weaken moral sensitivities and inhibitions (Gen 9:21; 19:32; Hab 2:15; Is 5:11-12); they cause physical sickness (Prov 23:20-21; Hos 7:5; Is 19:14; Ps 60:3); and they disqualify for both civil and religious service (Prov 31:4-5; Lev 10:9-11; Ezek 44:23; 1 Tim 3:2-3; Titus 1:7-8)." (REF: S. Bacchiocchi. The Sobering Facts About New Testament Wine, Signs of the Times, January 1990)

"Contrary to popular opinion, in the ancient world the preservation of grape juice unfermented was a relatively simple process. It was accomplished by boiling down the juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration, or by placing the grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water, or by fumigating the wine jars with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly indicates that the means of preserving grape juice without fermentation were known and used in the ancient world." (REF. Bacchiocchi, Ibid)

The Wedding at Cana

In the Bible (Revised Standard Version or RSV) in the book of John, Chapter 2 and verses 1-11, describe that Jesus (PBUH) his mother and his disciples were invited to a wedding at Cana in Galilee. Here Jesus (PBUH) shows a miracle by converting water into wine.

               " When the steward of the feast tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from: the steward of the feast called the bridegroom, and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.”     John 2: 10, 11.

Samuele Bacchiocchi (REF: S. Bacchiocchi. The Sobering Facts About New Testament Wine, Signs of the Times, January 1990, pp. 3-5 ) argues that  "good wine" does not mean that it has a high alcoholic  content.

He says Christians believe that the wine was fermented from grape juice and that the word “the best” (John 2: 10 NIV) is interpreted as “a high quality alcoholic wine.” He further states that the words “have drunk freely” does not mean that they were intoxicated from an overuse of fermented wine. According to Bacchiocchi the wine” used in the wedding at Cana was unfermented grape juice and that the Jews at that time knew how to preserve unfermented grape juice through the year. The expression “have drunk freely”, he says, “is used in the sense of satiation. It refers simply to the large quantity of wine generally consumed at a feast, without any reference to its intoxicating effects.”

 One can read “In Cana, the disciples did not enjoy the new supply of wine but ‘believed in him’ who had made it (John 2: 11).” (The Broadman Bible commentary Vol. 9, 1970, p. 229).

“ And no one puts new wine into old “wineskins”; if he does, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost, and so are the skins; but new wine is for fresh skins.”

Mark 2: 22

 

Christians interpret this verse to mean that Jesus (PBUH) is advising not to put “new wine into old wineskins.” This is rebuffed by Bacchiocchi by quoting Alexander B. Bruce (”The Synoptic Gospels” in The Expositor’s Greek Testament, Grand Rapids, 1956, p.500) “ Jesus was not thinking at all of fermented, intoxicating wine, but of must, a non-intoxicating beverage, which could be kept safely in new leather bottles, but not in old skins which had previously contained ordinary wine, because particles of albuminoid matter adhering to the kin would set up fermentation and develop gas with an enormous pressure.”

“ For John the Baptist (Yahya (AS)) has come eating no bread and drinking NO wine; and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of man has come eating and drinking; and you say, ‘Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!.'

 

Luke 7: 33,34 (RSV)

Again Christians believe that Jesus (PBUH), is admitting his ‘eating and drinking’ life style and they conclude that Jesus (PBUH), must be drinking alcoholic wine, otherwise he will not be called a “drunkard.”  In counter argument, Bacchiocchi (Ibid) says “Jesus used the phrase “eating no bread and drinking no wine” to describe the life style of John the Baptist (Yahya (AS)) who was socially isolated, whereas Jesus describes his own life style as “ eating and drinking” meaning that Jesus lived a “life style free of social association.”  “ The important point is in the words “Son of man has come eating and drinking” the word wine is missing. Hence if Jesus (PBUH) was a wine-drinker he could have repeated the word wine which he used in describing John the Baptist.

The word “drunkard” used against Jesus (PBUH) is a false accusation. Because on two occasions his adversaries said of him “you have a demon” (John 7:20., 8:118). Does it mean that Jesus (PBUH) had an evil spirit within him simply because his adversaries say so. Jesus (PBUH) was a Prophet and his life style of self-denial is the proof.

The following verses refer to the Last Supper of Christ (PBUH):

“Drink of it, all of you for this is my blood of the cove­nant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of’ the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

Matthew 26: 28-29 (RSV).

 

“ And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant,

Which poured out for many. Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the Kingdom of’ God.”

Mark 14: 24-25 (RSV)

Christians believe that the wine used during the Last Supper was alcoholic because words “fruit of the vine” are interpreted as fermented wine. Secondly they assume that during Passover time Jews drink only fermented wine. Bacchiocchi (Ibid) says “Fermented wine is not the natural fruit of the vine but the unnatural fruit of fermentation and decay. The Jewish historian Josephus, who was a contemporary of the apostles, explicitly calls the three clusters of grapes freshly squeezed in a cup by Pharaoh’s cupbearer “the fruit of the vine.” Thus the phrase was used to designate the sweet unfermented juice of the grape….     Christ could hardly have commanded “all” of his followers through the ages to drink the cup if it contained alcoholic wine. There are some to whom alcohol in any form is very harmful. We cannot conceive of Christ bending over to bless in grateful prayer a cup containing alcoholic wine which the Scripture warns us not to look at (Prov 23:31). A cup that intoxicates is a cup of cursing and not "the cup of blessing" (1 Cor 10:16); it is "the cup of demons" and not "the cup of the Lord" (1 Cor 10:21); it is a cup that cannot fittingly symbolize the incorruptible and "precious blood of Christ" (1 Peter 1:18-19). This gives us reason to believe that the cup He "blessed" and gave to His disciples did not contain any "fermented thing" prohibited by Scripture."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX7r7ytqlDA
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13

Broncrider

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2015, 01:29:11 am »
Toty,
     I have come to expect a certain level of abysmal scholarship in the articles and links that you post, and your most recent offering (reply#27) was no exception.  The Scriptures do not ‘condemn the use of alcoholic beverages’, but they do have a lot to say about drunkenness.  Several verses in the book of Proverbs talk about the folly of drunkenness; in addition, habitual drunkenness is correctly identified as an undesirable trait in those in positions of leadership.  Furthermore, the only way the verses in the Bible that caution against drunkenness make any sense is if they actually refer to fermented wine.  Saying that the word for ‘wine’ in Jn2 refers to mere grape juice while the word for ‘wine’ in the passages speaking of drunkenness refers to fermented beverages is nothing more than a convenient ad hoc interpretation on your part to read into the text what you already believe. 
     It makes no sense to say that when Jesus converted water to wine he merely made grape juice.  In verse 10 the master of the banquet commented that it is common practice to serve the best wine first and save the inferior wine for later when the guests have had too much to drink.  Good grape juice doesn’t deaden the senses to anything, but good wine does.  Also, your source claims that in Lk7:34 Jesus is falsely accused of being a drunkard; therefore Jesus never drank fermented wine.  That conclusion clearly does not follow since if Jesus never drank any wine there would have been no reason to accuse him of being a drunkard.  The fact that Jesus’ enemies had seen Jesus partaking of wine is the only sensible explanation as to why they would falsely accuse him of being a drunkard. 
     Anyway, if you want to “analyze [the] Scriptures to arrive at the truth” (as Ibrahim B. Syed says) then I suggest that you consider the following verses: 
-Deut14:26 (NIV) “Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink…” 
-Ps104:14-15 “He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate-bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens the heart of man…”
-Hos2:7 “She [Israel] has not acknowledged that I [God] was the one who gave her the grain, the new wine and oil…”
-Isa25:6 “On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine – the best of meats and the finest of wines
     Remember, the verses above come from the Old Testament which, according to the Qur’an (3:3, 5:47, and 6:115) contains the words of God.  If you take the aforementioned verses from the Qur’an seriously, then you must also take seriously the Bible verses that I quoted; therefore, it looks like it is ok for even you as a Muslim to partake of alcoholic beverages – doesn’t it?

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toty

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Re: please stop !
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2015, 05:33:45 am »
The meaning of this speech is very dangerous
This confirms Christians away   for the actions and words of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him

Jesus Christ , peace be upon him

Did not drink wine never in his life

Alcohol and Pork prohibited in the Qur'an and the Bible - by Dr. Zakir Naik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV2siRpWPmg
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