Noah Hawryshko

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Help me believe in the resurrection!
« on: October 11, 2014, 11:46:48 pm »
I'm a Christian and I believe that the evidence for the existence of God is more probable than it is improbable. I believe that Bayes' theorem correctly makes the resurrection of Christ more probable that it does not, as long as we consider the chance that God exists. But I have absolutely no reason to believe that the resurrection happened if i disregard the evidence for the existence of God's existence. Please don't give me any "There is more evidence for Jesus than X" arguments, or anything like that. I'll start with a claim and we can get things rolling:

1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. (Yes, I have seen the Craig-Parsons debate)

Please give me your best arguments for the resurrection of Jesus. I often hear Craig talk about how he can offer the "argument from the existence of God, the argument from personal experience, and the argument of the resurrection". Please help me try to understand why it would be though more probable than not. I would love to offer Christ's resurrection as evidence for Christianity being true, but before I offer it, I need to believe it's more probable than not first. As I've said, the only reason that I believe the resurrection is true is because of the evidence for the existence of God.

I hope for the best!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 07:14:00 pm by Noah Hawryshko »
Hey guys! I tend to log on and respond to posts all at once, so don't feel like I'm not reading your responses!

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Noah Hawryshko

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Re: Help me believe in the resurrection!
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2014, 07:14:19 pm »
Bump.
Hey guys! I tend to log on and respond to posts all at once, so don't feel like I'm not reading your responses!

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Soyeong

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Re: Help me believe in the resurrection!
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2014, 09:09:38 pm »
Quote
1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. (Yes, I have seen the Craig-Parsons debate)

What is extraordinary evidence?  Does it glow?  Unless you can define what it looks like, there's no way to tell when it's been provided.  Without that, all you're saying is that claims require what you personally consider to be sufficiently strong evidence before you will believe them, which is so obvious that it shouldn't have to be said.  Plus, I can turn it around and say that it is an extraordinary claim that that Christianity survived its inception without a resurrected savior, so regardless of whether or not Christianity is true, something extraordinary happened. 

Quote
Please give me your best arguments for the resurrection of Jesus.

WLC uses the Minimal Facts argument, which I consider to be very strong, so why don't you consider that sufficient for your purposes? 

I don't think it's about using the strongest argument so much as it is about making a cumulative case.  For instance, we need to establish whether what we have accurately represents what was originally written and whether what was originally written was reliable in the first place.  Then we can also look at other factors, such as whether what happened was likely to have happened if Christianity was false.  For that, I suggest reading this:

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.php
"Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it.”

Yeshua answered them, “The reason you go astray is that you are ignorant both of the Tanakh and of the power of God. - Matthews 22:29 (CJB)

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Vimbiso

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Re: Help me believe in the resurrection!
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2014, 08:40:22 am »
I'm a Christian and I believe that the evidence for the existence of God is more probable than it is improbable. I believe that Bayes' theorem correctly makes the resurrection of Christ more probable that it does not, as long as we consider the chance that God exists. But I have absolutely no reason to believe that the resurrection happened if i disregard the evidence for the existence of God's existence. Please don't give me any "There is more evidence for Jesus than X" arguments, or anything like that. I'll start with a claim and we can get things rolling:

1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. (Yes, I have seen the Craig-Parsons debate)

Please give me your best arguments for the resurrection of Jesus. I often hear Craig talk about how he can offer the "argument from the existence of God, the argument from personal experience, and the argument of the resurrection". Please help me try to understand why it would be though more probable than not. I would love to offer Christ's resurrection as evidence for Christianity being true, but before I offer it, I need to believe it's more probable than not first. As I've said, the only reason that I believe the resurrection is true is because of the evidence for the existence of God.

I hope for the best!

If you consider the evidence that Craig has presented for the resurrection to be invalid / insufficient then no additional evidence is going to make it more certain. You say you are a Christian, so I would suspect the Holy Spirit has confirmed it to you though this is not objective for an unbeliever but rather for your personal benefit.

Think of it this way. What evidence could be generated by God raising Jesus from the dead.

1. Evidence Jesus existed. Check.
2. Eye witness accounts of Jesus' death. Check.
3. It is not necessary that He is buried but if He was, evidence He was buried. Check.
4. Evidence the tomb was empty. Check. After all someone cannot rise from the dead and His body remain in the tomb.
5. Eye witness accounts of Jesus actually rising from the dead. This is debatable but we have angels that tell the ladies who came to His tomb that He had risen. Whether or not they were eye witnesses to the event, I don't know.
6. Some of the eye witnesses in 1, reporting that they have seen the same Jesus alive after His death. Check.
7. A record of the event for posterity. Check.

The list is not exhaustive but of the 7 possible evidences, I have presented, that could arise from such an event, we have 6 that are widely, though not unanimously, accepted. If by best evidence you mean evidence other than this, then feel free to add to the list and indicate whether or not that evidence is available.
Pro Nostrum Invisitatus Redemptor

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ProDeo

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Re: Help me believe in the resurrection!
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2014, 02:50:20 am »
Please give me your best arguments for the resurrection of Jesus.

I would say the martyr death of the 11 apostles.

The apostles knew if the resurrection was a lie or truth. It's hard to find examples in history sane people willing to die for a lie. Let alone 11 and for the same lie.

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Re: Help me believe in the resurrection!
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2016, 06:08:28 am »
I believe in God, because I believe that he created us. I dont need to prove that to you guys. We have uor own opinion and beliefs. Keep your faith <3 God bless

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Korvexius

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Re: Help me believe in the resurrection!
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 10:28:01 pm »
Read Michael Licona's The Resurrection of Jesus (InterVarsity 2010, the endorsements of this book read like a whos who of new testament scholarship).

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dcrump

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Re: Help me believe in the resurrection!
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2018, 09:19:01 am »
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" 

I'm not so sure of that when I consider that the bible tells that faith the size of a mustard seed (Mat 17:20) is all that's required. Not tremendous, demonstrative faith or evidence.  Having said that I believe there is much, much evidence for the resurrection of Christ.  William Lane Craig has presented several great arguments for the same.  But we must always remember that Christianity requires faith 1st BUT it's marvelous that evidence for the resurrection strengthens our faith as Christians (It does for me). 

I don't want to re-post many of the arguments that have already been posted above.  However, I do want to point out that those who opposed Christianity stated themselves that Christ's tomb was empty.  For me this is huge.  It's one thing for Christ's disciples to claim that but entirely a different thing for the opponents of Christ to claim it.  It means that whatever methods they used to examine or investigate the tomb where Christ's body once laid, THEY concluded that the tomb was empty.  In essence they did not disagree with the evidence of the empty tomb, but instead produced a lie to explain why the tomb was (still is) empty. 

So here we have two opposing sides that both concluded or agree on the same thing - the empty tomb.  So now then the question becomes "How did the tomb become empty?  I submit through Jesus' resurrection which can further be argued for by the pulling in of other pieces of evidences like:

1. The disciples witnessing in Jerusalem
2. Christ's post-resurrection appearances
3. External sources or writings about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ
4. The dead, lifeless corpse of Jesus Christ was never produced as evidence to show that he indeed remains in the grave.

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eklypised

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Re: Help me believe in the resurrection!
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2019, 09:59:36 pm »
Would Thomas have stepped up and had be a disciple if he never felt Yeshuas wounds?

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jayceeii

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Re: Help me believe in the resurrection!
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2019, 08:22:59 am »
Would Thomas have stepped up and had be a disciple if he never felt Yeshuas wounds?
The resurrection story is a trap laid for the body-identified, whose existentially unclear thinking presumes the body to be the all and even the personality, regarding reanimation of this body the only miracle relevant to immortality. Were Thomas only convinced by seeing and verifying the resurrected human form, his mind would be of  a low quality, limited to a material perception of reality. He could become Jesus’ follower, not a friend. Christianity failed to establish any practical standards of companionship or cooperation.

The idea resurrection is a viable route to immortality depends on God setting up some realm where these can dwell, and the scriptures are devoid of realistic descriptions of Heaven to reassure anyone about this. Had Jesus been resurrected, the body was of little use to Him, since He did not resume His ministry and we have no post-resurrection parables. Resurrection may not even be a real power of God, and if not the Christian attempt to worship Him on this basis resolves to delusion, obviously not pointed at God.

In general the greatest evidence the resurrection did not occur is that God would be found performing magic tricks, when useful miracles were required, if any miracles could be done. Jesus failed to educate mankind in the proper means to care for a planet, how to avoid war or how to form the best government for them. This absence of any serious instruction from God has led to the current planetary crisis, that nobody still sees clearly. More important than resurrection would be a new planet; as God is failing with this one.