Jabberwock

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Or, have no "marriages" recognized be the state, and only contracts recognized by the state. This will solve a lot of problems, and only possibly anger pro-gay bigots and theocrats.

Given that what the state recognizes today does not fit your definition of marriage, this is exactly how the situation is today. You should be happy...
First learn to spell "ironic discussion"...

1

joey

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???

That's ridiculous.  I have no reason to believe FOX news is more reliable than any other, but to suggest they're somehow not on the same level as MSNBC, CNN, CBS and the other networks, some of which have been shown to outright fabricate stories, is gluing those intellectual blinders on a little too tight.

FOX is regularly shown to be either lying or misleading.

You're confusing what you post here with Fox.
Just because he refuses to even give your hateful, invective vitriol against certain group of people it doesn't mean he is in err.

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JFS

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Crash,

I notice your posts regarding the oppression against the homosexual movement are long and eloquent. However, when confronted with real examples of persecution against those who hold traditional views of marriage you simply question the sources without actually looking into it.

Why is that? Why is it that no other same sex marriage advocates are standing against this misapplication of justice in this thread? I think Trinity's meme reflects my sentiment as well...saw this coming a million miles away.
"Influencing people for the good of myself is manipulation; influencing people for the good of the kingdom is motivation." -Alistair Begg

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Jabberwock

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Crash,

I notice your posts regarding the oppression against the homosexual movement are long and eloquent. However, when confronted with real examples of persecution against those who hold traditional views of marriage you simply question the sources without actually looking into it.

Why is that? Why is it that no other same sex marriage advocates are standing against this misapplication of justice in this thread? I think Trinity's meme reflects my sentiment as well...saw this coming a million miles away.

This is not misapplication of justice and even less persecution. If they want to provide a strictly religious ceremonies, they are free to do that and the state will have nothing to say about it. They could turn down anyone they want. On the other hand, if they want their services to be recognized by the state, they have to play by the rules of the state.
First learn to spell "ironic discussion"...

4

Free Will

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???

That's ridiculous.  I have no reason to believe FOX news is more reliable than any other, but to suggest they're somehow not on the same level as MSNBC, CNN, CBS and the other networks, some of which have been shown to outright fabricate stories, is gluing those intellectual blinders on a little too tight.

FOX is regularly shown to be either lying or misleading.

You're confusing what you post here with Fox.
Just because he refuses to even give your hateful, invective vitriol against certain group of people it doesn't mean he is in err.

And a turnip too.

Just because you say so... ?  His lack of intellectual integrity has been soundly exposed in every case where it's been confronted it.

There's no hate, invective, or vitriol in me. 
--This user has been banned for creating sock puppet accounts and general deceptive conduct.--

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Crash Test

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Crash,

I notice your posts regarding the oppression against the homosexual movement are long and eloquent. However, when confronted with real examples of persecution against those who hold traditional views of marriage you simply question the sources without actually looking into it.

Why is that? Why is it that no other same sex marriage advocates are standing against this misapplication of justice in this thread? I think Trinity's meme reflects my sentiment as well...saw this coming a million miles away.

I don't do it with every source.  I'm saying that FOX is unreliable, and I double check specifically Christian sources.

I've said explicitly that I don't think churches should be forced to perform SSM.  However, this case involves a for-profit organisation.  Much like the previous case where I don't object to churches preaching whatever they want, but there are legal issues when it comes to political rallying, this case can't be presented as simple "persecution of Christians".

I'm not saying that this isn't a case of SSM being forced onto Christians, but I strongly dissuade people from taking FOX' word for it.
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Crash Test

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And a turnip too.

Just because you say so... ?  His lack of intellectual integrity has been soundly exposed in every case where it's been confronted it.

There's no hate, invective, or vitriol in me.

You do realise that following me around and calling me a liar doesn't actually count as "sound exposure", right?
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12thMonkey

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if they want their services to be recognized by the state, they have to play by the rules of the state.

Part of the problem is that now everything seems to come under the rules of the state.  There's very little escaping it.  Virtually everything you do or say has been covered by some regulation. 

If a husband and wife who run the "Hitching Post" in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho can't hope to escape the arm of the state and exercise their religious beliefs with some semblance of freedom, who can? 


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Athi

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I've said explicitly that I don't think churches should be forced to perform SSM.  However, this case involves a for-profit organisation.  Much like the previous case where I don't object to churches preaching whatever they want, but there are legal issues when it comes to political rallying, this case can't be presented as simple "persecution of Christians".

This.

Religious institutions (all of them, not just Christians) should not be forced to perform marriage ceremonies for same sex marriages if it conflicts with their beliefs. I strongly agree with this. Businesses (i.e. for-profits) being held accountable to the anti-discrimination laws that apply to businesses is a separate matter.

An equally accurate headline for the article could be "Business owner refusing to provide service to a minority group held accountable under anti-discrimination laws". Of course, no one would click that link. Actually, this headline is even more accurate to the facts. If it wasn't a business in question, they couldn't have gotten in trouble for their actions. Where as if the business owners weren't Christian they still would have.

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12thMonkey

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But businesses owners don't lose out on the protections of the constitution simply because they own a business... for instance, the Hobby Lobby decision. 

And other institutions are "for profit" and also have protections under the constitution.  Newspapers have been pretty big business, until recently, and they're provided ample leeway under the First Amendment. 

The idea that "for profit" suddenly means you have no protection against the state forcing you to violate your beliefs isn't quite accurate. 

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12thMonkey

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An interesting article from the Washington Post and Eugene Volokh:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/10/18/can-ministers-who-make-a-living-by-conducting-weddings-be-required-to-conduct-same-sex-weddings/

"I don’t think there can be a compelling government interest in shielding people from such rejections when it comes to the performance of ceremonies. The same, I think, is true when officiants refuse to perform ceremonies for interfaith couples, couples remarrying after a divorce (notwithstanding state laws that ban marital status discrimination), intercaste couples, or interracial couples — or same-sex couples."


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Athi

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The idea that "for profit" suddenly means you have no protection against the state forcing you to violate your beliefs isn't quite accurate. 

That's not what I was trying to convey, but that it is an issue with business laws keeping up that are the problem. Not that Christians or religious freedoms are being directly targeted.

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Jabberwock

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Part of the problem is that now everything seems to come under the rules of the state.  There's very little escaping it.  Virtually everything you do or say has been covered by some regulation. 

If a husband and wife who run the "Hitching Post" in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho can't hope to escape the arm of the state and exercise their religious beliefs with some semblance of freedom, who can?

Actually, it is very easy for them to escape the arm of the state - they just need to establish a church. Then they can exercise their beliefs (and accept donations) unhindered by the state. But they do not want to do that - they want to run a religious business. They want to be covered by some state rules which they seem fit and be exempt from others. 'For profit business' is a Ceasarean institution. If they were a church, they could perform their rituals and discriminate against whomever they wished.
First learn to spell "ironic discussion"...

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bskeptic

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Hmmm.....

This didn't take long.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/city-threatens-to-arrest-ministers-who-refuse-to-perform-same-sex-weddings.html

Do you know how many advocates of same sex marriage told me that this would never happen?  Like you said, it hasn't taken long.  Slipperly slope slidin' along.


Now they will just say, "Well this is right because it's a business".

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neil

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If they tried to do this to me I would get in my car ride to the nearest prison and see if the prison warden will organise me a cell. Like anyone doing God's works should be manipulated in such a petty way? Stand up for what you believe in brothers and sisters.
“Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee
And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.”
― Robert Frost