JudeNebula

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2015, 10:08:37 am »
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No you misunderstood him, and because of that you quoted him out of context. He said in reference to EPIPHENOMANLISM, we are all zombies, because EP is ridiculous. But to say we are zombies in any other context is take him out of context. He clearly doesn't believe in p-zombies.

You...do know that epiphenominalism is the only recourse to naturalism right? To say dualism is not true, and epiphenominalism is not true would entail actual p-zombies.

No I don't know that. And I don't think you know what EP is either.

I work on the brain for a living. A have a graduate degree in brain and behavior research. Before that I studied philosophy of mind. I've worked with cognitive psychologist and neuroscientists.

I've never met a single person in any of those fields who believe in EP (or dualism).
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Language-Gamer

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2015, 10:29:24 am »
Quote
No you misunderstood him, and because of that you quoted him out of context. He said in reference to EPIPHENOMANLISM, we are all zombies, because EP is ridiculous. But to say we are zombies in any other context is take him out of context. He clearly doesn't believe in p-zombies.

You...do know that epiphenominalism is the only recourse to naturalism right? To say dualism is not true, and epiphenominalism is not true would entail actual p-zombies.

No I don't know that. And I don't think you know what EP is either.

I work on the brain for a living. A have a graduate degree in brain and behavior research. Before that I studied philosophy of mind. I've worked with cognitive psychologist and neuroscientists.

I've never met a single person in any of those fields who believe in EP (or dualism).

And he's a member of MENSA!
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie
And that they love to see us all go to prison or die
Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"
But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

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ParaclitosLogos

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2015, 10:36:22 am »
Quote
No you misunderstood him, and because of that you quoted him out of context. He said in reference to EPIPHENOMANLISM, we are all zombies, because EP is ridiculous. But to say we are zombies in any other context is take him out of context. He clearly doesn't believe in p-zombies.

You...do know that epiphenominalism is the only recourse to naturalism right? To say dualism is not true, and epiphenominalism is not true would entail actual p-zombies.

No I don't know that. And I don't think you know what EP is either.

I work on the brain for a living. A have a graduate degree in brain and behavior research. Before that I studied philosophy of mind. I've worked with cognitive psychologist and neuroscientists.

I've never met a single person in any of those fields who believe in EP (or dualism).

I have a question.

How does the true belief content, "Good, JudeNebula, has a graduate degree in brain and behavior research. And before that, he studied philosophy of mind. He is in the know" enters the causal chain that leads to me writing the following question?

Why do you, Jude Nebula, think those people do not belief in EP nor dualism?


You can put the 2nd question aside, if you prefer.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 10:38:19 am by ontologicalme »

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Lawlessone777

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2015, 10:36:32 am »
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No I don't know that. And I don't think you know what EP is either.

I work on the brain for a living. A have a graduate degree in brain and behavior research. Before that I studied philosophy of mind. I've worked with cognitive psychologist and neuroscientists.

I've never met a single person in any of those fields who believe in EP (or dualism).

No I do fully understand what epiphenominalism is and how it pertains to the philosophy of the mind. But since you're so educated in this; I ascribe to duualist interactionism due to the requirement of non-reductive processes to be involved in the existence of qualia. Writ large reductionism entails that any physicalist universe could not give rise to qualia due to intentionality being unable to arise naturally from extensionality unless we presume some sort of bizarro emergentism.

Dennet here is ascribing to a strange form of functionalism where consciousness entails the collection of "memes" set about by cultural education, which runs into the profound problem that such memes could not explain the self affirming existence of qualia which he sort of just hand waves. In essence "I" could not simply be something taught to my brain through culture because "I" would need to pre-exist my own education to even be capable of comprehending my own creation through culture.

But even if we allow for the existence of these memes as consciousness it still entails that unless Dennet is appealing to a functionalism which also presumes a bizarre form of emergentism that conscious mind still could not exist given that all mental processes would be required to be as of the result of a physicalist system.

I mean if you're so sure of this how have you solved the Chinese Room problem?
God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

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JudeNebula

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2015, 10:43:00 am »
Lawless,

I've read every single one of Dennett's books written in the last 30 years. What you just wrote about his beliefs are simply way off the mark.

Therefore, I don't see the point in debating your fallacious and straw man view of his beliefs. Go and read a few of his books, and actually take the time to understand them and then come back to me.
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Soren

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2015, 10:47:24 am »
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No you misunderstood him, and because of that you quoted him out of context. He said in reference to EPIPHENOMANLISM, we are all zombies, because EP is ridiculous. But to say we are zombies in any other context is take him out of context. He clearly doesn't believe in p-zombies.

You...do know that epiphenominalism is the only recourse to naturalism right? To say dualism is not true, and epiphenominalism is not true would entail actual p-zombies.

No I don't know that. And I don't think you know what EP is either.

I work on the brain for a living. A have a graduate degree in brain and behavior research. Before that I studied philosophy of mind. I've worked with cognitive psychologist and neuroscientists.

I've never met a single person in any of those fields who believe in EP (or dualism).

I have a question.

How does the true belief content, "Good, JudeNebula, has a graduate degree in brain and behavior research. And before that, he studied philosophy of mind. He is in the know" enters the causal chain that leads to me writing the following question?

Why do you, Jude Nebula, think those people do not belief in EP nor dualism?


You can put the 2nd question aside, if you prefer.

Thanks.
If you are asking, "Can belief content affect behavior?" then I think the answer is yes. For example, there is a whole body of research on cognitive therapy for depression that addresses this. When people with depression work on changing their thinking to get rid of depressive distortions -- in other words, when the content of their beliefs become more accurate -- then these content changes actually affect the biochemistry of the brain, which in turn affects behavior. I will defer to Jude, who clearly has far more expertise in this then I do, but it seems to me that this is one example of many of belief content affecting behavior, in contradiction to EP (and content EP).

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Trinity

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2015, 10:51:50 am »

Science and Religion: Are They Compatible? Alvin Plantinga vs. Daniel Dennett

I remember trying to listen to that debate some months ago, but I never finished it due to the poor sound quality.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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JudeNebula

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2015, 11:02:47 am »
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No you misunderstood him, and because of that you quoted him out of context. He said in reference to EPIPHENOMANLISM, we are all zombies, because EP is ridiculous. But to say we are zombies in any other context is take him out of context. He clearly doesn't believe in p-zombies.

You...do know that epiphenominalism is the only recourse to naturalism right? To say dualism is not true, and epiphenominalism is not true would entail actual p-zombies.

No I don't know that. And I don't think you know what EP is either.

I work on the brain for a living. A have a graduate degree in brain and behavior research. Before that I studied philosophy of mind. I've worked with cognitive psychologist and neuroscientists.

I've never met a single person in any of those fields who believe in EP (or dualism).

I have a question.

How does the true belief content, "Good, JudeNebula, has a graduate degree in brain and behavior research. And before that, he studied philosophy of mind. He is in the know" enters the causal chain that leads to me writing the following question?

Why do you, Jude Nebula, think those people do not belief in EP nor dualism?


You can put the 2nd question aside, if you prefer.

Thanks.

Great question! But it actually stems from the same faulty assumption that leads to both dualism and EP. So if you understand this faulty assumption, you will then see why dualism and EP are false, and why these people don't believe in either.

The faulty assumption is that biological processes and beliefs are two different things, instead of the same thing viewed from two different perspectives.

So in EP - biological processes (A) cause mental processes (B), which in turn have no causal effect the other way- at least as usually stated by EP believers.

in Dualism- biological processes (A) and mental processes (B) are two different substances.

But what most philosopher's of mind/neuroscientists/cognitive psychologists believe is that mental processes are simply the subjective experience of biological processes. Meaning what it is like when you ARE those biological processes.

A belief is the 1st person experience of neurons firing. Just as sight is the first person experience of light entering the retina and signaling parts of the brain.

Therefore that belief "Jude Nebula etc.." is part of the causal chain because it is neurons firing (from an objective perspective)

Is that clear?
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Trinity

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2015, 11:04:18 am »
Wouldn't that just be an elaborate way of saying ''We are our brain''?
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Lawlessone777

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2015, 11:20:23 am »
Lawless,

I've read every single one of Dennett's books written in the last 30 years. What you just wrote about his beliefs are simply way off the mark.

Therefore, I don't see the point in debating your fallacious and straw man view of his beliefs. Go and read a few of his books, and actually take the time to understand them and then come back to me.

I...have? This is a bit obvious, Jude, to be honest. If I'm so painfully wrong why not just crush my fallacious argument with your educated mind?
God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

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Lawlessone777

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2015, 11:21:59 am »
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A belief is the 1st person experience of neurons firing.

Reductive matter can experience qualia? Thats...not...possible. Atoms don't experience anything.
God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

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Crash Test

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2015, 11:24:34 am »
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A belief is the 1st person experience of neurons firing.

Reductive matter can experience qualia? Thats...not...possible. Atoms don't experience anything.

Atoms also aren't shaped like tables, but that doesn't mean that tables are immaterial.
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Lawlessone777

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2015, 11:29:52 am »
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Atoms also aren't shaped like tables, but that doesn't mean that tables are immaterial.

Atoms reductively possess the properties of weight and material existence, thus on both a micro and macro scale can be shown to possess those properties even when put together on large scale.

Macro scale if matter possessed the property of consciousness then micro-scale it would also need to possess the property of consciousness much like "lots" of lead possesses the property of weight, and "little" amounts of lead also, still, possess the property of weight.

Which is emergentism, and is very, very problematic. What Jude is talking about is functionalism, which still suffers the problem of reductionism.
God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

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Lawlessone777

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Re: Daniel Dennett: A Zombie Trying (and failing) to Understand the EAAN
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2015, 11:34:13 am »
Also if you really want to go far with these "tables" don't exist on naturalism. A table is an intensional state of identity assigned to a clump of matter by a mind. Intentionality, on naturalism, cannot exist due to the reductionistic nature of matter meaning naturalism, inexorably, leads to full blown mereological nihilism unless we presuppose intentionality as an emergent property of matter.
God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.