ParaclitosLogos

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XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« on: March 20, 2015, 11:13:58 pm »
These are a little more than 3 minute videos explaining a very interesting conception of the incarnation.
And, I would like to read comments from those who have been researching and studying these matters for some time now.

As, these are new subjects to me.

Mostly, I just want to have a friendly discussion in an environment of sharing knowledge and ideas, and not of everlasting dissension, for a change.

JP Moreland on logic and the incarnation


Timothy Pawl considers whether God becoming man is logically impossible.

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Language-Gamer

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2015, 11:28:53 pm »
I think the starting place for all discussion is the seven ecumenical councils. I'm not positive we have to use the exact same words they used or whatever, because I don't think of doctrine that way, but this is certainly the best place to start. I like what Timothy Pawl has to say, but I think I ultimately prefer a mysterian view. 
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie
And that they love to see us all go to prison or die
Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"
But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

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ParaclitosLogos

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2015, 11:44:22 pm »
I think the starting place for all discussion is the seven ecumenical councils. I'm not positive we have to use the exact same words they used or whatever, because I don't think of doctrine that way, but this is certainly the best place to start. I like what Timothy Pawl has to say, but I think I ultimately prefer a mysterian view.

Is all this correct? advice for better sources? (specially on the mysterian view)

1st seven ecumencial councils
Quote
These seven ecumenical councils are:

First Council of Nicaea (325)
First Council of Constantinople (381)
Council of Ephesus (431)
Council of Chalcedon (451)
Second Council of Constantinople (553)
Third Council of Constantinople (680)
Second Council of Nicaea (787)


Catholic Church US
Quote
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 11:47:27 pm by ontologicalme »

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Language-Gamer

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2015, 11:48:57 pm »
Seven councils is correct.  For the most part, Moreland and Pawl summarize the doctrine: Jesus is one person with two natures and two minds.

I also thought Craig's most recent question of the week was helpful.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie
And that they love to see us all go to prison or die
Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"
But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

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bdsimon

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2015, 04:45:57 am »
Really enjoying the links this morning. I especially found Pawl's brief presentation to be enlightening. Assigning seemingly contradictory attributes to the same person in the manner he did (separate natures) makes a lot of sense.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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ParaclitosLogos

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2015, 05:20:17 am »
Good morning.

For a longer and more complete read of Pawl´s approach:

A SOLUTION TO THE FUNDAMENTAL PHILOSOPHICAL PROBLEM OF CHRISTOLOGY - Thimothy Pawl

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2015, 05:23:26 am »
I was thinking that perhaps, we could use this thread as sort of a study group on the 1st seven Ecumenical Councils teachings. Though, I have no idea how heavy is such a subject.

Perhaps, bring commentaries and questions, on them, then, in a less formal manner.

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lapwing

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2015, 06:53:48 am »
Berkhof's view: https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/unipersonality-christ/systematic-theology/louis-berkhof

extracts:

Quote
1. DEFINITION OF THE TERMS “NATURE” AND “PERSON.” With a view to the proper understanding of the doctrine, it is necessary to know the exact meaning of the terms “nature” and “person,” as used in this connection. The term “nature” denotes the sum-total of all the essential qualities of a thing, that which makes it what it is. A nature is a substance possessed in common, with all the essential qualities of such a substance. The term “person” denotes a complete substance endowed with reason, and, consequently, a responsible subject of its own actions. Personality is not an essential and integral part of a nature, but is, as it were, the terminus to which it tends. A person is a nature with something added, namely, independent subsistence, individuality. Now the Logos assumed a human nature that was not personalized, that did not exist by itself.

Quote
There is but one person in the Mediator, the unchangeable Logos. The Logos furnishes the basis for the personality of Christ. It would not be correct, however, to say that the person of the mediator is divine only. The incarnation constituted Him a complex person, constituted of two natures. He is the Godman.

Quote
The one divine person, who possessed a divine nature from eternity, assumed a human nature, and now has both. This must be maintained over against those who, while admitting that the divine person assumed a human nature, jeopardize the integrity of the two natures by conceiving of them as having been fused or mixed into a tertium quid, a sort of divine-human nature.

Quote
The doctrine of the two natures in one person transcends human reason. It is the expression of a supersensible reality, and of an incomprehensible mystery, which has no analogy in the life of man as we know it, and finds no support in human reason, and therefore can only be accepted by faith on the authority of the Word of God. For that reason it is doubly necessary to pay close attention to the teachings of Scripture on this point.

Quote
2. BOTH NATURES ARE REPRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE AS UNITED IN ONE PERSON. There are passages of Scripture which refer to both natures in Christ, but in which it is perfectly evident that only one person is intended, Rom. 1:3,4; Gal. 4:4,5; Phil. 2:6-11. In several passages both natures are set forth as united. The Bible nowhere teaches that divinity in the abstract, or some divine power, was united to, or manifested in, a human nature; but always that the divine nature in the concrete, that is, the divine person of the Son of God, was united to a human nature, John 1:14; Rom. 8:3; Gal. 4:4; 9:5; I Tim. 3:16; Heb. 2:11-14; I John 4:2,3.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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ParaclitosLogos

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2015, 01:42:21 pm »
Berkhof's view: https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/unipersonality-christ/systematic-theology/louis-berkhof

extracts:

Quote
1. DEFINITION OF THE TERMS “NATURE” AND “PERSON.” With a view to the proper understanding of the doctrine, it is necessary to know the exact meaning of the terms “nature” and “person,” as used in this connection. The term “nature” denotes the sum-total of all the essential qualities of a thing, that which makes it what it is. A nature is a substance possessed in common, with all the essential qualities of such a substance. The term “person” denotes a complete substance endowed with reason, and, consequently, a responsible subject of its own actions. Personality is not an essential and integral part of a nature, but is, as it were, the terminus to which it tends. A person is a nature with something added, namely, independent subsistence, individuality. Now the Logos assumed a human nature that was not personalized, that did not exist by itself.

Quote
There is but one person in the Mediator, the unchangeable Logos. The Logos furnishes the basis for the personality of Christ. It would not be correct, however, to say that the person of the mediator is divine only. The incarnation constituted Him a complex person, constituted of two natures. He is the Godman.

Quote
The one divine person, who possessed a divine nature from eternity, assumed a human nature, and now has both. This must be maintained over against those who, while admitting that the divine person assumed a human nature, jeopardize the integrity of the two natures by conceiving of them as having been fused or mixed into a tertium quid, a sort of divine-human nature.

Quote
The doctrine of the two natures in one person transcends human reason. It is the expression of a supersensible reality, and of an incomprehensible mystery, which has no analogy in the life of man as we know it, and finds no support in human reason, and therefore can only be accepted by faith on the authority of the Word of God. For that reason it is doubly necessary to pay close attention to the teachings of Scripture on this point.

Quote
2. BOTH NATURES ARE REPRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE AS UNITED IN ONE PERSON. There are passages of Scripture which refer to both natures in Christ, but in which it is perfectly evident that only one person is intended, Rom. 1:3,4; Gal. 4:4,5; Phil. 2:6-11. In several passages both natures are set forth as united. The Bible nowhere teaches that divinity in the abstract, or some divine power, was united to, or manifested in, a human nature; but always that the divine nature in the concrete, that is, the divine person of the Son of God, was united to a human nature, John 1:14; Rom. 8:3; Gal. 4:4; 9:5; I Tim. 3:16; Heb. 2:11-14; I John 4:2,3.

Wow! nice, thanks!

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lapwing

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2015, 01:50:34 pm »
Hi ontologicalme,

When it's said that the Incarnation is "logically" impossible, I don't think it's meant to refer to formal logic such as saying in Boolean logic a value and its negation both have the same value. More like it's a miracle which we can't comprehend.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 04:12:55 pm by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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ParaclitosLogos

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Re: XO: A consistent account of the Incanation.
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2015, 04:14:07 am »
Hi ontologicalme,

When it's said that the Incarnation is "logically" impossible, I don't think it's meant to refer to formal logic such as saying in Boolean logic a value and its negation both have the same value. More like it's a miracle which we can't comprehend.

I am open to the idea that there are things about God that we can´t understand.
But, I wonder if this is one of them, so much so to even use the label of logically impossible.

I don´t see neither the impossibility nor the logical problem, specially seeing it from the point of view of Pawl´s formulation.


Timothy Pawl considers whether God becoming man is logically impossible.


If fact, if one was to assert that this is as logically impossible as a married bachelor, it should not very difficult to show by a syllogism the contradiction. But, I don´t know that has been done, maybe, some of our resident philosophers , here, could attain that feat.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 04:16:08 am by ontologicalme »