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God, Omni presence and suffering
« on: May 18, 2015, 09:02:24 am »

I need help with the quote below taken from a different forum I was on in which I was supporting the idea that God and Evil/suffering can both exist at the same time using WLC material.   How would you answer the below?:

The burden of proof is solely on the theist in this regard. It is the strongest atheistic argument for not believing in an Omni-benevolent deity. My biggest objections, which I've never heard answered or even discussed, are as follows,
1) Omni-benevolence/Omni-present Contradiction-If God is the ultimate being, postulated by Anslems Ontology, one of the aspects of this would be that he is Omni-Present as well as Omni-benevolent. Omni-presence would also indicate timeless-ness, as it would indicate fullness of presence, eternally, in every possible moment as well as in all possible realities, many of which never existed, nor ever will. However, monotheisms justify the doctrine of eternal punishment with the argument that an All-just as well as an All-Loving God cannot tolerate any Evil in his presence. However, if he is Omni-present, than evil has existed in the fullness of God's presence forever, and if he is eternally in every moment, he is eternally in the presence of evil. And this argument cannot be avoided by having two different definitions of Presence, for if presence is not full and complete in every moment, it ceases to be Omni, as well as violates Anslems Ontology, in any real way, and would cease to be the God of classical western theistic philosophy.
2) The Argument from Sufficient Moral Reason- This is William Lane Craig's favorite argument to combat the classic problem of evil. This has always struck me as at the very least Begging the Question, but even a bit circular reasoning. Because if God is bound in someway by a concept of moral necessity, then he ceases to be omnipotent in a meaningful way. Even if one argues that God must allow evil in order for Free Will to be possible, then Free will becomes the concept that God is bound by. But omnipotence cannot be bound in such a way, for if God is omnipotent, then the very concepts of Moral Necessity as well as free will are concepts he created. And if these concepts can exist independent of God's exist, how is he the ultimate being? Once again the ultimate being becomes too prone to paradox, and if he can be bound by paradox, then he isn't "omni." So the classic problem of evil still stands. "Either god cannot stop evil, and is thus impotent, or he will not stop evil, and is thus either capricious or indifferent"
So, even if God's existence was validated by cosmological or teleological arguments, one would never be able to rationally believe he was omni-benevolent while at the same time being omnipotent or omniscient. It is simply too paradoxical to be accepted in anything other than a Kierkegaard-esque fashion. If a there exists an ultimate being, ultimate responsibility also follows for succeeding causal events.


FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: God, Omni presence and suffering
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2015, 07:19:23 pm »
If you repost this in the "choose your own topic" section you will probably get a number of responses. That is where all the discussion seems to go.