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Moot

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2015, 10:41:28 am »
I feel like this thread is returning to its original intent! I think booger is correct that questioning all of reality does effectively question the existence of potatoes. It is a debate tactic that happens on this site but I know Christians do stuff like this as well at times so I want to be fair.

Really? Can you point me to one instance of someone denying the existence of reality as a debate tactic?

Also, I still don't understand the point of this thread. Are you trying to show that you can deny the existence of anything by making weird assumptions? Of course you can. Who's ever denied that?

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2015, 10:46:00 am »
I feel like this thread is returning to its original intent! I think booger is correct that questioning all of reality does effectively question the existence of potatoes. It is a debate tactic that happens on this site but I know Christians do stuff like this as well at times so I want to be fair.

Really? Can you point me to one instance of someone denying the existence of reality as a debate tactic?

Also, I still don't understand the point of this thread. Are you trying to show that you can deny the existence of anything by making weird assumptions? Of course you can. Who's ever denied that?

I mentioned the point in a number of places here. Most people misunderstood it… something I learned about psychology is that people often do not "hear" what the other person is saying but what they hear is something the have experienced in the past. It happens with couples often where one person says something totally innocent and the other person takes offense.

I would say that in intense discussions where you finally make a good point, rather than the person accepting the point they avoid it and make a different point which ends up distracting from the point that was at issue for the last 4 pages of the thread. I can't think off the top of my head someone questioning the external world specifically but I have seen them bring up our ability to know anything at random times… I more agreed with the analogy of the comment and not the literal… I may have misspoke or been wrong :)

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Moot

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2015, 10:53:25 am »
I feel like this thread is returning to its original intent! I think booger is correct that questioning all of reality does effectively question the existence of potatoes. It is a debate tactic that happens on this site but I know Christians do stuff like this as well at times so I want to be fair.

Really? Can you point me to one instance of someone denying the existence of reality as a debate tactic?

Also, I still don't understand the point of this thread. Are you trying to show that you can deny the existence of anything by making weird assumptions? Of course you can. Who's ever denied that?

I mentioned the point in a number of places here. Most people misunderstood it… something I learned about psychology is that people often do not "hear" what the other person is saying but what they hear is something the have experienced in the past. It happens with couples often where one person says something totally innocent and the other person takes offense.

I would say that in intense discussions where you finally make a good point, rather than the person accepting the point they avoid it and make a different point which ends up distracting from the point that was at issue for the last 4 pages of the thread. I can't think off the top of my head someone questioning the external world specifically but I have seen them bring up our ability to know anything at random times… I more agreed with the analogy of the comment and not the literal… I may have misspoke or been wrong :)

Sure. There's often a willingness to win in discussions. Especially heated ones. Sometimes people will throw out red herrings. Sometimes they'll hide behind some unfalsifiable nonsense. I still don't see the relevance of the potato analogy.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2015, 11:04:19 am »
I just want to be clear on what you ask asking me to demonstrate to you, the existence of 'everything physical' or the 'existence of potatoes'.   It's like asking me to explain Newtonian physics, and then ignoring my explanation saying that I did not explain the laws of nature, and without those laws, physics does not work.

I was operating on the assumption that we both accept the existence of the physical.  Is that a false assumption?  Should I begin at that point, or am I wasting my time here ?

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2015, 12:47:11 pm »
I feel like this thread is returning to its original intent! I think booger is correct that questioning all of reality does effectively question the existence of potatoes. It is a debate tactic that happens on this site but I know Christians do stuff like this as well at times so I want to be fair.

Really? Can you point me to one instance of someone denying the existence of reality as a debate tactic?

Also, I still don't understand the point of this thread. Are you trying to show that you can deny the existence of anything by making weird assumptions? Of course you can. Who's ever denied that?

I mentioned the point in a number of places here. Most people misunderstood it… something I learned about psychology is that people often do not "hear" what the other person is saying but what they hear is something the have experienced in the past. It happens with couples often where one person says something totally innocent and the other person takes offense.

I would say that in intense discussions where you finally make a good point, rather than the person accepting the point they avoid it and make a different point which ends up distracting from the point that was at issue for the last 4 pages of the thread. I can't think off the top of my head someone questioning the external world specifically but I have seen them bring up our ability to know anything at random times… I more agreed with the analogy of the comment and not the literal… I may have misspoke or been wrong :)

Sure. There's often a willingness to win in discussions. Especially heated ones. Sometimes people will throw out red herrings. Sometimes they'll hide behind some unfalsifiable nonsense. I still don't see the relevance of the potato analogy.

My thought was that potatoes obviously exist, but reason and debate tactics can be used to defend their non existence. I wanted that to be seen by experiencing this thread. But it is becoming far too personal and serious because people immediately thought I was saying that there was some analogy between potatoes and God which wasn't my intent.

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Moot

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2015, 12:53:21 pm »
I feel like this thread is returning to its original intent! I think booger is correct that questioning all of reality does effectively question the existence of potatoes. It is a debate tactic that happens on this site but I know Christians do stuff like this as well at times so I want to be fair.

Really? Can you point me to one instance of someone denying the existence of reality as a debate tactic?

Also, I still don't understand the point of this thread. Are you trying to show that you can deny the existence of anything by making weird assumptions? Of course you can. Who's ever denied that?

I mentioned the point in a number of places here. Most people misunderstood it… something I learned about psychology is that people often do not "hear" what the other person is saying but what they hear is something the have experienced in the past. It happens with couples often where one person says something totally innocent and the other person takes offense.

I would say that in intense discussions where you finally make a good point, rather than the person accepting the point they avoid it and make a different point which ends up distracting from the point that was at issue for the last 4 pages of the thread. I can't think off the top of my head someone questioning the external world specifically but I have seen them bring up our ability to know anything at random times… I more agreed with the analogy of the comment and not the literal… I may have misspoke or been wrong :)

Sure. There's often a willingness to win in discussions. Especially heated ones. Sometimes people will throw out red herrings. Sometimes they'll hide behind some unfalsifiable nonsense. I still don't see the relevance of the potato analogy.

My thought was that potatoes obviously exist, but reason and debate tactics can be used to defend their non existence. I wanted that to be seen by experiencing this thread. But it is becoming far too personal and serious because people immediately thought I was saying that there was some analogy between potatoes and God which wasn't my intent.

But that point is too obvious to even be pointed out. Of course you can defend the view that potatoes don't exist with fallacious reasoning, and weird assumptions. Again, who has ever denied that?

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2015, 01:18:41 pm »
I feel like this thread is returning to its original intent! I think booger is correct that questioning all of reality does effectively question the existence of potatoes. It is a debate tactic that happens on this site but I know Christians do stuff like this as well at times so I want to be fair.

Really? Can you point me to one instance of someone denying the existence of reality as a debate tactic?

Also, I still don't understand the point of this thread. Are you trying to show that you can deny the existence of anything by making weird assumptions? Of course you can. Who's ever denied that?

I mentioned the point in a number of places here. Most people misunderstood it… something I learned about psychology is that people often do not "hear" what the other person is saying but what they hear is something the have experienced in the past. It happens with couples often where one person says something totally innocent and the other person takes offense.

I would say that in intense discussions where you finally make a good point, rather than the person accepting the point they avoid it and make a different point which ends up distracting from the point that was at issue for the last 4 pages of the thread. I can't think off the top of my head someone questioning the external world specifically but I have seen them bring up our ability to know anything at random times… I more agreed with the analogy of the comment and not the literal… I may have misspoke or been wrong :)

Sure. There's often a willingness to win in discussions. Especially heated ones. Sometimes people will throw out red herrings. Sometimes they'll hide behind some unfalsifiable nonsense. I still don't see the relevance of the potato analogy.

My thought was that potatoes obviously exist, but reason and debate tactics can be used to defend their non existence. I wanted that to be seen by experiencing this thread. But it is becoming far too personal and serious because people immediately thought I was saying that there was some analogy between potatoes and God which wasn't my intent.

But that point is too obvious to even be pointed out. Of course you can defend the view that potatoes don't exist with fallacious reasoning, and weird assumptions. Again, who has ever denied that?

I defended their non-existence without using fallacious reasoning actually but the point is that its ridiculous and no one would defend it but people use philosophy to defend ridiculous beliefs.

Though I am tired of explaining my intent, if people don't understand it by now it don't have a desire to keep talking about it.

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Moot

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2015, 01:27:44 pm »
I feel like this thread is returning to its original intent! I think booger is correct that questioning all of reality does effectively question the existence of potatoes. It is a debate tactic that happens on this site but I know Christians do stuff like this as well at times so I want to be fair.

Really? Can you point me to one instance of someone denying the existence of reality as a debate tactic?

Also, I still don't understand the point of this thread. Are you trying to show that you can deny the existence of anything by making weird assumptions? Of course you can. Who's ever denied that?

I mentioned the point in a number of places here. Most people misunderstood it… something I learned about psychology is that people often do not "hear" what the other person is saying but what they hear is something the have experienced in the past. It happens with couples often where one person says something totally innocent and the other person takes offense.

I would say that in intense discussions where you finally make a good point, rather than the person accepting the point they avoid it and make a different point which ends up distracting from the point that was at issue for the last 4 pages of the thread. I can't think off the top of my head someone questioning the external world specifically but I have seen them bring up our ability to know anything at random times… I more agreed with the analogy of the comment and not the literal… I may have misspoke or been wrong :)

Sure. There's often a willingness to win in discussions. Especially heated ones. Sometimes people will throw out red herrings. Sometimes they'll hide behind some unfalsifiable nonsense. I still don't see the relevance of the potato analogy.

My thought was that potatoes obviously exist, but reason and debate tactics can be used to defend their non existence. I wanted that to be seen by experiencing this thread. But it is becoming far too personal and serious because people immediately thought I was saying that there was some analogy between potatoes and God which wasn't my intent.

But that point is too obvious to even be pointed out. Of course you can defend the view that potatoes don't exist with fallacious reasoning, and weird assumptions. Again, who has ever denied that?

I defended their non-existence without using fallacious reasoning actually but the point is that its ridiculous and no one would defend it but people use philosophy to defend ridiculous beliefs.

Though I am tired of explaining my intent, if people don't understand it by now it don't have a desire to keep talking about it.

That's fine. And yes, you can use philosophical lingo to defend any idea you want to defend. My favorite example is Douglas Harding's 'On Having No Head', where he defends the idea that he doesn't have a head.

http://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/chapter-2-on-having-no-head.html

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Booger

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #98 on: May 21, 2015, 02:01:13 pm »
I just want to be clear on what you ask asking me to demonstrate to you, the existence of 'everything physical' or the 'existence of potatoes'.   It's like asking me to explain Newtonian physics, and then ignoring my explanation saying that I did not explain the laws of nature, and without those laws, physics does not work.

I was operating on the assumption that we both accept the existence of the physical.  Is that a false assumption?  Should I begin at that point, or am I wasting my time here ?
Are you beginning to see the problem theists have? No matter how many times and how many ways a theist says, "God does not exist, but is existence itself," atheists insist on talking about God as though God is a "thing" reducible to an idea. They insist that "one plus one equals two" and that there is nothing else beyond "one plus one."

In this scenario, I am playing the role of an "apotatoist" and you have to prove to me potatoes really exist. But you can't, you know you can't because the parameters I put into place makes it impossible. So rather than do what theists do, you tell yourself you're wasting your time and turn your back.
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TheBigOhMan

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2015, 02:28:10 pm »

Don't we all, Captain Obvious?

¿Why don't you just bite me next time? chill out...

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2015, 02:54:23 pm »
Both parties should stop the fighting or bickering or whatever you call it. I am contemplating deleting the thread because of it... if that is still possible.

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2015, 03:03:57 pm »
I am going to try to delete the thread mostly because it has been misinterpreted and will probably continue to be so. I don't have any hard feelings or think anything bad about people who commented or got into it with each other. I mostly am just certain that people will continue to quote the OP and misunderstand it so I might as well trash it if the system still let's you.

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2015, 03:04:57 pm »
Haha, nvm. It's impossible!

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2015, 03:55:05 pm »
Quote
Are you beginning to see the problem theists have? No matter how many times and how many ways a theist says, "God does not exist, but is existence itself," atheists insist on talking about God as though God is a "thing" reducible to an idea. They insist that "one plus one equals two" and that there is nothing else beyond "one plus one."

In this scenario, I am playing the role of an "apotatoist" and you have to prove to me potatoes really exist. But you can't, you know you can't because the parameters I put into place makes it impossible. So rather than do what theists do, you tell yourself you're wasting your time and turn your back.

No, actually. The problem that I have seen was you moving the goal posts in the discussion; changing from one thin to another.  While this makes things difficult, it does not make the discussion impossible to have.  We just have to re-adjust and re-focus the conversation on the new goal posts.  I am willing to do that if you are serious here, but it seems more and more that you are simply trying to make a rhetorical point without ever actually taking the response seriously.

I am more than willing to show you how we can go about tackling this problem, if you want to listen, but if you want to just say "no" and put your fingers in your ears, well it is a free country.

Also, please don't try to tell me what it is that I can and cannot do before I have even tried.  It is a little insulting, and it shows me that you are not really taking this exercise seriously at all.....  You seem to be taking this as a soap box to proclaim "Look what atheists can't do !" and then when I try you simply shrug and say "but what about X" and then when I try to explain X, you say "but what about Y" and then when I explain Y, you say "but what about X....."

-------------------

So I have to ask again, are you honestly seeking an answer to your challenge, or was it simply a rhetorical device that you are assuming proves your point automatically without ever even considering to other side of the discussion ?

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Crash Test

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Re: Potatoes do not exist
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2015, 04:00:14 pm »

Are you beginning to see the problem theists have? No matter how many times and how many ways a theist says, "God does not exist, but is existence itself," atheists insist on talking about God as though God is a "thing" reducible to an idea.

Very, very few theists make that claim, at least consistentlym, and at least not here.  Craig's arguments explicitly contradict it, and the main proponent of that idea that springs to mind is Tillich, who is often accused of being an atheist...

If you happen to have that view, fine, but most responses aren't directed at you.
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