SPF

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Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« on: May 19, 2015, 07:31:40 am »
Gordy:
Quote
This is a problem that faces all protestants, they don't believe in the infallibility of the Church

Do you recall the Arian heresy? You see this today with the JWs.  Pope Liberius (352-366), rather than defending Athanasius, signed a document that supported those against him and condemned Athanasius. Nearing the end of his pontificate he recanted his signature and reinstated Athanasius. Infallible?

Pope Honorius I (625-638) was condemned and excommunicated for heresy by the sixth general council in 680. The Roman Breviary contained the condemnation of Honorius on the Feast of St Leo II right up until the 18th century.

Pope Steven VI (896-897), was consecrated (possibly against his will) by Pope Formosus who, during his reign, was excommunicated for leaving the Papal seat and “conspiring to destroy the papal see”. He was eventually forgiven and returned to Rome. When Stephen VI came the Papal Throne, he had the body of formosus exhumed and put on trial (this is the famous Cadaver Synod). Formosus was accused of transmigrating sees in violation of canon law, of perjury, and of serving as a bishop while actually a layman. Stephen had Formosus’ papal vestments removed and two fingers from his right hand cut off. Formosus’ body was thrown in to the Tiber. After the Synod, public opinion turned against Stephen. He was deposed in an uprising and strangled to death.

Pope John XII (955-964) Through his mother Alda of Vienne, John XII was a seventh generation descendant of Charlemagne. John was the temporal and spiritual ruler of Rome and during his pontificate he virtually turned it into a whorehouse. Moral corruption in Rome became a major problem. After crowning Otto I Emporer of Germany in order to secure his support in a war against Berengar II of Itlay, he changed his mind and began communicating with Berengar. Otto learnt of John’s treachery and returned to Rome after defeating Berengar. He called a council which deposed John who was hiding in the mountains, and elected Leo VIII in his place. John, with a large group of supporters, returned to Rome to depose Leo VIII before Otto had even left. Otto pledged to assist Leo against John but before the matter went any further, John died. It is rumoured that he was killed by the husband of one of his mistresses.An account of the charges against him in the Patrologia Latina states:

"They testified about his adultery, which they did not see with their own eyes, but nonetheless knew with certainty: he had fornicated with the widow of Rainier, with Stephana his father’s concubine, with the widow Anna, and with his own niece, and he made the sacred palace into a whorehouse. They said that he had gone hunting publicly; that he had blinded his confessor Benedict, and thereafter Benedict had died; that he had killed John, cardinal subdeacon, after castrating him; and that he had set fires, girded on a sword, and put on a helmet and cuirass."

I could go on, but needless to say, history reveals quite clearly that Pope's are just men.  Men who are fallible, men who sin, men who frankly, carry no more spiritual authority than the Protestant Pastor down the street.

I have yet to see a strong and reasonable Biblically based argument that would support any sort of infallible position of the Catholic church.  If anything, I would agree with my Orthodox brothers that the Catholic Church is the one that split away in the Great Schism of 1056, not the Orthodox.
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

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FNB - Former non-believer

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2015, 08:06:28 am »
Interesting ending. I agree that the Catholic church is not infallible, but would you call the Eastern Orthodox Church the one true church?

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kravarnik

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2015, 08:18:28 am »
There's a quote I sometimes bring up in discussions of RCC, which is issued by a contemporary of the Schism. What the quote says is very, very true, in my opinion - in that RCC decided by her own will, that Christianity is a monarchy, while the initial Christian structure was always that of BROTHERHOOD. Christianity was never meant to be a monarchy, so that there be a single infallible monarch, whose authority cannot be questioned.

Of course, hierarchy of duty is needed, in that certain people within the Church will have more authority on some matters, but it is never to be structured in a way, as to put some people in greater ESSENTIAL authority and worthiness than the rest. And even those high in the hierarchy, are there due to mutual agreement among the Christendom, and not simply appointed by their own wish, but have been elected by a mutual consensus among Christians. For the overall good of the Church.

Christianity was always meant to be a brotherhood of equals, and not a monarchy, where there's a monarch at the head of the Church and everyone has to listen to him and do what he says. No human being has ever been bestowed with such a role, other than Jesus Christ. No Apostle, no Saint, no Prophet.


Also, it is very interesting to me, that these that were actually personally anointed by God - Prophets, the Apostles, some Saints - never bestowed themselves with authority greater than any other human being. Quite the contrary, they were humble. The RCC hierarchy does not show such humility, but the very opposite - it assumes greater authority for their Pope than any other human being. Which is never to be found in the Bible, nor any Apostlic tradition, but that one that the RCC claims to have inherited. However, if RCC inherits Papal authority on the basis of inheriting Apostolic tradition, then any of the other major Churches at the time might have made the same claim - because they too inherited authentic Apsotolic tradition. Neither of them did.
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SPF

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2015, 08:21:00 am »
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but would you call the Eastern Orthodox Church the one true church?
Absolutely not, I'm a Protestant! I take a more traditional Protestant view on what the Church is.  Meaning, I think there is the Universal Church, which is made up of all Believers, everywhere.  Then there are local Churches, which people attend.

Paul says in Romans 16:5 to "greet the church that is in their house."  Paul is referring to the Believers, not some sort of Church Building. 

The only person that has ever lived that was without sin was Christ.  All of us, no matter how far along we are in our process of sanctification, still battle our flesh.  We still sin.  While we may be saints now, we are still saints who sin.  This is true of all people (it was even true of Mary). 

All one has to do is look at history and you can see that any organization that claims its leaders as infallible falls short.  It's not hard to do.  Whether it's the Catholics with their changing traditions and sinful popes, or the JWs and their false prophecies, to the Mormons with their crook of a founder.  All people, everywhere - sin.

The only "perfect" source we have is Scripture. Only Scripture is inspired. 
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

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JFS

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2015, 09:00:34 am »
With all of this dissension and tribal protectionism in the Body of Christ, how do we obtain the John 17 unity that Jesus desires for us?  Without that, the rest of the world will not know that God sent his son! (read John 17).

My wife came from a strong RC background and this past weekend her mother sent her a video decrying Protestantism and she has been aggressively trying to persuade my wife that hell fire awaits for any who are Prots (my wife left the RC church last year).  It's highly discouraging and even more so considering that only 2 of her 5 daughters actually attend church/mass at all.  The 3 that don't are not a concern to her mother since they have been baptized Catholic and are safe to go to heaven in her opinion.  One of the non-attending sisters approached me yesterday (my wife's mom has been discussing this with anyone who would listen) and told me not to pay attention to the rhetoric.  Sadly, her mother's dogmatism and judgmental outlook has further soiled this non-attending sister even further as she sees the divisiveness as further evidence that the whole thing is 'bunk'. It is also driving my wife away and she is shocked at the level of judgment that is coming out of this particular RC Church that she grew up in.  It is tribal, confrontational and not becoming to the Body.

This whole thing saddens me and it is tough to not feel a high level of resentment toward my mother-in-law and the RC church in general (there is a bit of a campaign in the local area by the RC church to bring people back to the church - their tactic, apparently, is to send out proclamations of denominational superiority - it's not exactly achieving the intended purpose).   BUT, I refuse to give in to this and will continue to seek unity amongst the denominations in spite of obstacles, pride and discouragement. 

This elitism is not just practiced by the local RC Church, it is also evident in several of the local churches who feel that their religion has it all figured out.  "To be a Christian, join our factional tribe".   Doesn't that sound attractive? That is the message that many denominations/churches send and what a contradiction to scripture that is.  There are no denominations in the Gospel nor the Acts.  Not one of the denominations that we call ourselves today is listed in the Bible.  Why do we continue to act as if this is the case? 

This divisiveness has to stop or God will make it stop.  I continue to pray for unity.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 09:04:40 am by JFS »
"Influencing people for the good of myself is manipulation; influencing people for the good of the kingdom is motivation." -Alistair Begg

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AnimatedDirt

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2015, 09:11:17 am »
With all of this dissension and tribal protectionism in the Body of Christ, how do we obtain the John 17 unity that Jesus desires for us?  Without that, the rest of the world will not know that God sent his son! (read John 17).

My wife came from a strong RC background and this past weekend her mother sent her a video decrying Protestantism and she has been aggressively trying to persuade my wife that hell fire awaits for any who are Prots (my wife left the RC church last year).  It's highly discouraging and even more so considering that only 2 of her 5 daughters actually attend church/mass at all.  The 3 that don't are not a concern to her mother since they have been baptized Catholic and are safe to go to heaven in her opinion.  One of the non-attending sisters approached me yesterday (my wife's mom has been discussing this with anyone who would listen) and told me not to pay attention to the rhetoric.  Sadly, her mother's dogmatism and judgmental outlook has further soiled this non-attending sister even further as she sees the divisiveness as further evidence that the whole thing is 'bunk'. It is also driving my wife away and she is shocked at the level of judgment that is coming out of this particular RC Church that she grew up in.  It is tribal, confrontational and not becoming to the Body.

This whole thing saddens me and it is tough to not feel a high level of resentment toward my mother-in-law and the RC church in general (there is a bit of a campaign in the local area by the RC church to bring people back to the church - their tactic, apparently, is to send out proclamations of denominational superiority - it's not exactly achieving the intended purpose).   BUT, I refuse to give in to this and will continue to seek unity amongst the denominations in spite of obstacles, pride and discouragement. 

This elitism is not just practiced by the local RC Church, it is also evident in several of the local churches who feel that their religion has it all figured out.  "To be a Christian, join our factional tribe".   Doesn't that sound attractive? That is the message that many denominations/churches send and what a contradiction to scripture that is.  There are no denominations in the Gospel nor the Acts.  Not one of the denominations that we call ourselves today is listed in the Bible.  Why do we continue to act as if this is the case? 

This divisiveness has to stop or God will make it stop.  I continue to pray for unity.

I agree with you, but do you promote that we not attend church, a church?

We have to kind of choose our preferred church.  I don't agree 100% with everything Adventism believes, but I do tend to think it is closest to the truth I FIND.
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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2015, 09:16:17 am »
I find the RC position on many things more and more agreeable.  Likewise the EOs and Anglicans.  But I'm not convinced that any of them are 'the one, true church'.  My studies of church history just seem far too ... messy ... for that to be true of any institution.  But, who knows, I'm really quite tempted to become RC or EO at the moment.

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JFS

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2015, 09:22:26 am »
Quote
I agree with you, but do you promote that we not attend church, a church?

It probably sounded like that and I apologize for not clarifying.

Absolutely, a person has to get connected with a local congregation.  It is biblical and vital.  What I am saying is that none of the 'denominations' who adhere, as a Christian priority for all believers, to man-made covenantal practices are actualizing the true intent of the Body of Christ. (again John 17 comes to mind).

We are tribal, separated, competitive (even if passively competitive, we are competitive).  This is not Godly nor is it His desire for us.

Quote
We have to kind of choose our preferred church.  I don't agree 100% with everything Adventism believes, but I do tend to think it is closest to the truth I FIND.

Absolutely! If someone feels drawn to the Catholic church, I encourage them to go there (I use this example because it is the one church that is furthest away from my perception of truth yet it still has the Truth - If you know what I mean).

Get connected, stay connected but the key is to not let our vision become so narrow that we forget that God's vision is for a Kingdom of God and not a denominational club or tribe.
"Influencing people for the good of myself is manipulation; influencing people for the good of the kingdom is motivation." -Alistair Begg

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Fred

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2015, 09:25:33 am »
SPF - The Catholic Church does not claim to be infallible in all things, but only when speaking ex cathedra.  I don't think the examples you gave were ex cathedra.

Regardless, I don't think you're being fair in judging any of these items unless you consider what the Catholic Church  has  to say about them. The Catholic Encyclopedia is a pretty comprehensive resource that you could use. 


Fred

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JFS

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2015, 09:26:36 am »
I find the RC position on many things more and more agreeable.  Likewise the EOs and Anglicans.  But I'm not convinced that any of them are 'the one, true church'.  My studies of church history just seem far too ... messy ... for that to be true of any institution.  But, who knows, I'm really quite tempted to become RC or EO at the moment.

I think that we all belong to the one True church.  Our human practices have corrupted it to the point of splintering and separation but we need to reach across in unity toward other brothers and sisters in humble servant hood.  The key is LOVE (God first, then all people).

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Jesus Prays for All Believers


20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”


"Influencing people for the good of myself is manipulation; influencing people for the good of the kingdom is motivation." -Alistair Begg

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2015, 09:29:50 am »
I hope you're right, JFS.  I don't want to be outside the true body of Christ.

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AnimatedDirt

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2015, 09:32:24 am »
I hope you're right, JFS.  I don't want to be outside the true body of Christ.

The true body isn't in any one religion or denomination.  The true body of Christ is spread out all over the world and is also a body of one...it is in our hearts.
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JFS

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2015, 09:36:02 am »
I hope you're right, JFS.  I don't want to be outside the true body of Christ.

The true body isn't in any one religion or denomination.  The true body of Christ is spread out all over the world and is also a body of one...it is in our hearts.

Amen.

The centuries of denominationalism has taken our eyes off this very simple truth.
"Influencing people for the good of myself is manipulation; influencing people for the good of the kingdom is motivation." -Alistair Begg

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2015, 09:38:37 am »
Well, yeah, again I hope that is true ... Other Christians would disagree with you.

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JFS

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Re: Why I don't think Catholic's Have it Right
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2015, 09:40:25 am »
From Billy Graham (as usual, well said):

Love one another, as I have loved you.
—John 15:12

As I study the subject of “separation” in the Old and New Testaments, I discover that the weight of Scripture lies in the direction of fellowship rather than separation. What is the great overwhelming evidence that we have passed from death unto life? It is love! Jesus Christ clearly was speaking of visible unity, such as can be seen by the world. His motive for praying was that the world might believe and the world might know. He prayed for unity among believers. God, who wills man’s unity in Christ, is a God of variety. So often we want everyone to be the same—to think and speak and believe as we do. Many Scripture passages could be called to witness that love is the real key to Christian unity. In the spirit of true humility, compassion, consideration, and unselfishness, we are to approach our problems, our work, and even our differences.
"Influencing people for the good of myself is manipulation; influencing people for the good of the kingdom is motivation." -Alistair Begg