SPF

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The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« on: June 23, 2015, 07:04:16 am »
For those of you truly interested in seeing how the Israelites in the OT viewed God, and if you want to see Jesus in the OT, and if you also want to see how Jesus IS God, then I highly recommend watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2WvZ0AcXi4

I would love to discuss it with anyone willing to take the time to listen to it.  The first 20-30 minutes are pretty dry, and you will want to kill yourself - but if you stick with it, it gets really interesting.  I couldn't recommend this enough for people who are struggling with believing in the Divinity of Christ, as well as people (a large number on this board) who don't actually have any Biblical languages education.  He does a great job at breaking down the language and putting the OT in context. 

I really think it would benefit anyone willing to spend the hour listening to it.

******* EDIT ********

I'm adding this video as well as it specifically goes into the aspects of Jesus in the OT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUkhWBKCuXc
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 07:10:38 am by SPF »
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

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Aaron Massey

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2015, 07:17:12 am »
I probably wont listen, but i would be keen to hear a summary from you SPF if it is not too much trouble.  Or anyone else that listens to it.
Cheers.
Proverbs 8:30 "then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man."

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SPF

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2015, 07:38:20 am »
You're one of the people I would really hope would take the time to listen to it. 
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

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Mrlondondude

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2015, 07:40:21 am »
Have you watched the full version SPF; I think tis like 4 hours long. Really good stuff.

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Soren

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2015, 07:41:14 am »
For those of you truly interested in seeing how the Israelites in the OT viewed God, and if you want to see Jesus in the OT, and if you also want to see how Jesus IS God, then I highly recommend watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2WvZ0AcXi4

I would love to discuss it with anyone willing to take the time to listen to it.  The first 20-30 minutes are pretty dry, and you will want to kill yourself - but if you stick with it, it gets really interesting.  I couldn't recommend this enough for people who are struggling with believing in the Divinity of Christ, as well as people (a large number on this board) who don't actually have any Biblical languages education.  He does a great job at breaking down the language and putting the OT in context. 

I really think it would benefit anyone willing to spend the hour listening to it.
I have not yet listened but will try to. However, I have this preliminary question for you or anyone else: Do you honestly think that, were it not for the New Testament, that anyone would have ever read the Old Testament as describing a triune God? My sense is no, which suggests that people are going back and using conclusion-driven reasoning to retrofit the Old Testament to fit the New. But as I said, I have not yet listened to the video, and I don't claim expertise in biblical interpretation, language, history, etc., so I would be interested in the opinions of others.

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Mrlondondude

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2015, 07:48:23 am »
For those of you truly interested in seeing how the Israelites in the OT viewed God, and if you want to see Jesus in the OT, and if you also want to see how Jesus IS God, then I highly recommend watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2WvZ0AcXi4

I would love to discuss it with anyone willing to take the time to listen to it.  The first 20-30 minutes are pretty dry, and you will want to kill yourself - but if you stick with it, it gets really interesting.  I couldn't recommend this enough for people who are struggling with believing in the Divinity of Christ, as well as people (a large number on this board) who don't actually have any Biblical languages education.  He does a great job at breaking down the language and putting the OT in context. 

I really think it would benefit anyone willing to spend the hour listening to it.
I have not yet listened but will try to. However, I have this preliminary question for you or anyone else: Do you honestly think that, were it not for the New Testament, that anyone would have ever read the Old Testament as describing a triune God? My sense is no, which suggests that people are going back and using conclusion-driven reasoning to retrofit the Old Testament to fit the New. But as I said, I have not yet listened to the video, and I don't claim expertise in biblical interpretation, language, history, etc., so I would be interested in the opinions of others.

Its progressive revelation which then, as you look back, illuminate what was actually there all along, but hidden. Like the typology of abraham and Jesus etc.

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SPF

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2015, 09:05:38 am »
Soren, as you watch this video, one thing that you should appreciate in light of what you just posted is that Dr.Heiser goes to great extent to actually read the text VIA the context in which it was written.  That part should at least be refreshing. 
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

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Redsox_239

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2015, 11:20:19 am »
Quote
For those of you truly interested in seeing how the Israelites in the OT viewed God, and if you want to see Jesus in the OT, and if you also want to see how Jesus IS God, then I highly recommend watching this video:

I love the Two powers of the godhead/trinity in OT stuff. It isn't even really trying to force the OT to fit the NT it is pretty clear in the text. I like the Abraham sacrifice and the burning bush the most. I think the messenger of YHWH is very likely Jesus.
Shroud of Turin: Blood, Body, and Wounds of the Christ

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/shroud-turin-blood-body-and-wounds-christ-6032120.0.html

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SPF

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 11:48:28 am »
I think the reason when Jesus is on trial in Matthew 26 and you see the high priest instantly tear his robes and declare that Jesus has uttered blasphemy is because the Jews recognized immediately that Jesus' answer to the priest concerning His identity was simple - He claimed to be YHWH.

Again, I recommend anyone struggling with the Divinity of Christ spend the 60 minutes to listen to this video.  It really helps provide the context by which the Israelites understood the OT and YHWH. 
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

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Redsox_239

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 11:52:09 am »
I like the Inspiring Philosophy video that talks about this topic. It is a very clear and compelling video imo. I think it is a better video to post because it is shorter, more entertaining, and still compelling.
Shroud of Turin: Blood, Body, and Wounds of the Christ

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/shroud-turin-blood-body-and-wounds-christ-6032120.0.html

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JohnBee

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2015, 02:57:07 pm »
For those of you truly interested in seeing how the Israelites in the OT viewed God, and if you want to see Jesus in the OT, and if you also want to see how Jesus IS God, then I highly recommend watching this video:
Most people don't want to hear or accept Jesus as a God.

N.B. Trolls are neither interested nor committed to the truth!

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JohnBee

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2015, 03:03:05 pm »
I think the reason when Jesus is on trial in Matthew 26 and you see the high priest instantly tear his robes and declare that Jesus has uttered blasphemy is because the Jews recognized immediately that Jesus' answer to the priest concerning His identity was simple - He claimed to be YHWH.
The claim by Jesus is that he was the prophesied Messiah, the Son of God. To which they accused him of lying. That said, it appears as though Jesus claiming to be YHWH is an amplification against the text given that 1) the charge was publicly declared during his trial AND 2) Jesus openly corrected his accusers in making himself out to be like God(as having authority).

Though interestingly enough, I don't think I've read of many people on the forums challenge Jesus' divinity as being part of YHWH's council, but rather, where they are often lead to believe that Jesus can only be equal to God so as to satisfy a man-made interpretation of the scriptures. When in truth, the Bible offers no such clause whatsoever.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 07:08:12 pm by JohnBee »
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Redsox_239

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2015, 03:28:05 pm »
Quote
but rather where they are often lead to believe that Jesus can only be equal to God so as to satisfy a man-made interpretation of the scriptures. When in truth, the Bible offers no such clause whatsoever

It sure seems like he is equal to God or called God when you look at the OT scriptures that include the Messenger of YHWH. For example, in the burning bush it says the messenger of YHWH said "................" and then it says a couple lines later tell them God told you "..........." Another example, the Abraham sacrifice...The messenger of YHWH says you have not withheld your son from ME. This video explains it well...

https://youtu.be/BNt5NKSse0Y
Shroud of Turin: Blood, Body, and Wounds of the Christ

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/shroud-turin-blood-body-and-wounds-christ-6032120.0.html

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JohnBee

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2015, 04:56:39 pm »
It sure seems like he is equal to God or called God when you look at the OT scriptures that include the Messenger of YHWH.
Since the scripture explicitly state that equality was not something to be had by the Son, I'd say this makes such arguments an open and shut case. Which is in itself the very issue derived from the Trinity as it leads one into compromising Bible declarations and commandments.  That said, I really don't get why so many religions seems so intent on substituting Jesus' teachings with their own when they we could so easily uphold the terms of true worship without it.

However, I'd add I don't see the need for equality where Jesus is qualified to reflect His Father's glory to humans. ie, if Jesus is the vessel through which the Father speaks to people, I see no reason to conclude that Jesus must be equal to the Father in doing so given that the Father's identify is maintained while the Son's remains obscured.

As for the video, I'll need to queue it later this evening before commenting.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 07:09:19 pm by JohnBee »
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jbejon

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Re: The Plurality of the Godhead in the OT: Jesus is there.
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2015, 05:28:45 pm »
Since the scripture explicitly state that equality was not something to be had by the Son...

You mean something to be “clung onto” or “grasped” or similar, right?