dorel

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The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« on: October 09, 2015, 01:29:35 am »
Yes it is.
Craig interpretation of the foreknowledge of God is totally wrong and mind boggling.

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omnarchy

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2015, 08:21:15 pm »
May I know why you think that Craig's interpretation of the foreknowledge of God is wrong? And also why do you think that the foreknowledge of God is contradictory with free will?

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dorel

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 04:46:21 am »
your question has an easy answer.
it's logically impossible to foreknow what will do a free being in the future.

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Nunovalente

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 06:43:28 pm »
your question has an easy answer.
it's logically impossible to foreknow what will do a free being in the future.

It may be logically impossible for humans to know, but not God.

On the other hand, it's not so hard. When you really know someone well, it is not hard to foreknow what choices they will make in a given scenario. Perfectly possible, in part, among humans who know each other.

Thing is, God know us better than we know ourselves. So it is not impossible, as humans can, albeit to a lesser degree.
Faith is being confident in things hoped for, the conviction of facts not yet seen. Hebrews 11.
Everyone exercises faith in something. What is your faith in?

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aleph naught

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2015, 07:23:14 pm »
Yes it is.
Craig interpretation of the foreknowledge of God is totally wrong and mind boggling.

Truth!

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dorel

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 04:19:56 am »
your question has an easy answer.
it's logically impossible to foreknow what will do a free being in the future.

It may be logically impossible for humans to know, but not God.

On the other hand, it's not so hard. When you really know someone well, it is not hard to foreknow what choices they will make in a given scenario. Perfectly possible, in part, among humans who know each other.

Thing is, God know us better than we know ourselves. So it is not impossible, as humans can, albeit to a lesser degree.
First is to say that the omnipotence of god not imply to do logically impossible things.
No man no God can do a squared circle.

Craig does not believe in a world of four dimensions, where the time is a reality as space and the matter.
In this description of the world, the past, present and future exist together, and God can see from outside the block of four dimensions any moment like a present.
Craig believes that God perceives time as we do:
-past no longer exists
-the present is now
-the future does not yet exist
Craig says that God knows the future because he knows the value of true or false of any proposition.
example: Dorel will eat pizza pie tomorrow?
God foreknows whether it is true or false that dorel eats pizza tomorrow.
The problem is that Dorel who is a free being, have the freedom  at any time that passes since we asked God, until the time of eating or not pizza arrives, to change his mind.
For example God can foreknow the position of an object.
why? because he can calculate the position of the object in the future, and this object will be there because obey the law of his physical nature and in no way can change this situation (the object).
Therefore the free will and the foreknowledge of god are logically contradictory
Answering most directly to your example of, if we know very well a person we can foreknow what will do in a certain situation.
is different to say
-I know Dorel, I know that he will eat pizza tomorrow because he eat pizza every sunday.
You have to accept that exist the possibility, even if is a small possibility, that Dorel choose to eat macaroni this sunday.
So you don't foreknow what will do dorel
You foreknow that is very probable that Dorel will eat pizza.
this is not knowledge
this is a conditional knowledge.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 04:52:06 am by dorel »

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rp1

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2016, 11:01:41 pm »
Quote
Answering most directly to your example of, if we know very well a person we can foreknow what will do in a certain situation.
is different to say
-I know Dorel, I know that he will eat pizza tomorrow because he eat pizza every sunday.
You have to accept that exist the possibility, even if is a small possibility, that Dorel choose to eat macaroni this sunday.
So you don't foreknow what will do dorel
You foreknow that is very probable that Dorel will eat pizza.
this is not knowledge
this is a conditional knowledge.

In is note-worthy Dorel is not in the same set of circumstances each time Dorel eats pizza on a Sunday. There was a first time. The second time Dorel had knowledge and experience of the first time. The third Sunday Dorel had knowledge of the first and the second time. The 150th time Dorel had experienced this 149 times before. Therefore the decision to eat Pizza on a Sunday is never the same set of properties for Dorel. Dorel is merely in similar but not identical circumstances.

Other properties of circumstance which differ each Sunday for Dorel include: age, weight, health status, knowledge of the day/month year and so forth. It is understood God understands all of these differences in properties each time Dorel eats Pizza on a Sunday.

If Dorel eats macaroni on Sunday it would have been Dorel's decision to do so. We can ask why Dorel broke the habit and it would be within human behaviour to offer a reason. God would be aware of this reason prior to Dorel making a decision to break the pizza habit.

Quote
Craig says that God knows the future because he knows the value of true or false of any proposition.
example: Dorel will eat pizza pie tomorrow?
God foreknows whether it is true or false that Dorel eats pizza tomorrow.
The problem is that Dorel who is a free being, have the freedom  at any time that passes since we asked God, until the time of eating or not pizza arrives, to change his mind.


As He is an omniscient being, God understands all of the possible opportunities for Dorel to change his mind in between the time of being asked and the time of Pizza arriving. If Dorel had changed his mind, this action would have changed God's foreknowledge.

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Atheist in Louisiana

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2016, 06:33:41 pm »
Foreknowledge is only a problem if the being with foreknowledge also cannot be wrong.  I'll grant that the foreknowledge may not actually be foreknowledge if that being can be wrong about it.

If you can't be wrong, and you know what will happen, then nothing outside of what you know is possible.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

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dorel

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2016, 07:22:30 am »
Quote
Answering most directly to your example of, if we know very well a person we can foreknow what will do in a certain situation.
is different to say
-I know Dorel, I know that he will eat pizza tomorrow because he eat pizza every sunday.
You have to accept that exist the possibility, even if is a small possibility, that Dorel choose to eat macaroni this sunday.
So you don't foreknow what will do dorel
You foreknow that is very probable that Dorel will eat pizza.
this is not knowledge
this is a conditional knowledge.

In is note-worthy Dorel is not in the same set of circumstances each time Dorel eats pizza on a Sunday. There was a first time. The second time Dorel had knowledge and experience of the first time. The third Sunday Dorel had knowledge of the first and the second time. The 150th time Dorel had experienced this 149 times before. Therefore the decision to eat Pizza on a Sunday is never the same set of properties for Dorel. Dorel is merely in similar but not identical circumstances.

Other properties of circumstance which differ each Sunday for Dorel include: age, weight, health status, knowledge of the day/month year and so forth. It is understood God understands all of these differences in properties each time Dorel eats Pizza on a Sunday.

If Dorel eats macaroni on Sunday it would have been Dorel's decision to do so. We can ask why Dorel broke the habit and it would be within human behaviour to offer a reason. God would be aware of this reason prior to Dorel making a decision to break the pizza habit.

Quote
Craig says that God knows the future because he knows the value of true or false of any proposition.
example: Dorel will eat pizza pie tomorrow?
God foreknows whether it is true or false that Dorel eats pizza tomorrow.
The problem is that Dorel who is a free being, have the freedom  at any time that passes since we asked God, until the time of eating or not pizza arrives, to change his mind.


As He is an omniscient being, God understands all of the possible opportunities for Dorel to change his mind in between the time of being asked and the time of Pizza arriving. If Dorel had changed his mind, this action would have changed God's foreknowledge.

my point was that exist a conflict between the foreknowledge and the free will.
my question to you is:
-if you ask god (supposed that you can) if Dorel will eat pizza this sunday?, and the answer is "yes"
-can Dorel eat macaroni, or other thing that is not pizza?
if your answer is "yes, he can" then god was wrong
if your answer is "no, he can't" then Dorel is not free to eat whatever he want

9

Atheist in Louisiana

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2016, 07:08:40 pm »
You are correct in your understanding of the problem Dorel.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

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toknowthetruth

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2016, 04:56:48 pm »
Quote
Answering most directly to your example of, if we know very well a person we can foreknow what will do in a certain situation.
is different to say
-I know Dorel, I know that he will eat pizza tomorrow because he eat pizza every sunday.
You have to accept that exist the possibility, even if is a small possibility, that Dorel choose to eat macaroni this sunday.
So you don't foreknow what will do dorel
You foreknow that is very probable that Dorel will eat pizza.
this is not knowledge
this is a conditional knowledge.

In is note-worthy Dorel is not in the same set of circumstances each time Dorel eats pizza on a Sunday. There was a first time. The second time Dorel had knowledge and experience of the first time. The third Sunday Dorel had knowledge of the first and the second time. The 150th time Dorel had experienced this 149 times before. Therefore the decision to eat Pizza on a Sunday is never the same set of properties for Dorel. Dorel is merely in similar but not identical circumstances.

Other properties of circumstance which differ each Sunday for Dorel include: age, weight, health status, knowledge of the day/month year and so forth. It is understood God understands all of these differences in properties each time Dorel eats Pizza on a Sunday.

If Dorel eats macaroni on Sunday it would have been Dorel's decision to do so. We can ask why Dorel broke the habit and it would be within human behaviour to offer a reason. God would be aware of this reason prior to Dorel making a decision to break the pizza habit.

Quote
Craig says that God knows the future because he knows the value of true or false of any proposition.
example: Dorel will eat pizza pie tomorrow?
God foreknows whether it is true or false that Dorel eats pizza tomorrow.
The problem is that Dorel who is a free being, have the freedom  at any time that passes since we asked God, until the time of eating or not pizza arrives, to change his mind.


As He is an omniscient being, God understands all of the possible opportunities for Dorel to change his mind in between the time of being asked and the time of Pizza arriving. If Dorel had changed his mind, this action would have changed God's foreknowledge.

my point was that exist a conflict between the foreknowledge and the free will.
my question to you is:
-if you ask god (supposed that you can) if Dorel will eat pizza this sunday?, and the answer is "yes"
-can Dorel eat macaroni, or other thing that is not pizza?
if your answer is "yes, he can" then god was wrong
if your answer is "no, he can't" then Dorel is not free to eat whatever he want
From what I understand the question should be "could Dorel eat macaroni...", not " can Dorel eat macaroni..." and the answer to that is yes he could, but God knows he won't. But if he does decided to eat macaroni God in His foreknowledge would know that. So whatever Dorel will do is what determines God's foreknowledge and God's foreknowledge plays no part in determining his choice.

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Jenna Black

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 05:02:25 pm »
your question has an easy answer.
it's logically impossible to foreknow what will do a free being in the future.
Please keep in mind that foreknowledge is not causation, to God's foreknowledge, if God has foreknowledge, has no effect whatsoever on free will.
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

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dorel

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2016, 05:57:09 am »
could or can?
we try to resolve a conflict, or an apparent conflict between our free will and the foreknowledge of god.
if god is in time, William say so,then god doesn't see from outside our future action.
he foreknew our action because he know the truth of any posible proposition.
if you Monday, ask god "will eat pizza Dorel Sunday? god know the truth
if the answer is yes, god know that yes.
if the answer is no, god know that no.
is easy tu accept that a god who sees the future, know, now what I will do tomorrow, because the action is done from the god perspective.
in this case we can say that the creature is free to do whatever he want, and whatever he will do is what god foresee and in consequence foreknows.
now, if god is in time and don't sees the future, is logically impossible to know the truth of an action that didn't happen yet, and which implies a free creature.
so it is logically impossible to know the truth answer to a proposition that don't have an answer yet.
exemple.
I ask god today: I will eat pizza sunday?
god answer is: yes, you will eat pizza sunday?
I ask god sunday: can I eat macaroni, please?
god has to say: no, because I told you monday that you will eat pizza this sunday, if I let you to eat macaroni, I was wrong when I told you that you will eat pizza, and I cannot be wrong, EAT PIZZA, NOW.

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toknowthetruth

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2016, 09:54:28 pm »
could or can?
we try to resolve a conflict, or an apparent conflict between our free will and the foreknowledge of god.
if god is in time, William say so,then god doesn't see from outside our future action.
he foreknew our action because he know the truth of any posible proposition.
if you Monday, ask god "will eat pizza Dorel Sunday? god know the truth
if the answer is yes, god know that yes.
if the answer is no, god know that no.
is easy tu accept that a god who sees the future, know, now what I will do tomorrow, because the action is done from the god perspective.
in this case we can say that the creature is free to do whatever he want, and whatever he will do is what god foresee and in consequence foreknows.
now, if god is in time and don't sees the future, is logically impossible to know the truth of an action that didn't happen yet, and which implies a free creature.
so it is logically impossible to know the truth answer to a proposition that don't have an answer yet.
exemple.
I ask god today: I will eat pizza sunday?
god answer is: yes, you will eat pizza sunday?
I ask god sunday: can I eat macaroni, please?
god has to say: no, because I told you monday that you will eat pizza this sunday, if I let you to eat macaroni, I was wrong when I told you that you will eat pizza, and I cannot be wrong, EAT PIZZA, NOW.
Those are good points. I think, if you are assuming that God is in time, what might be missing is the concept of middle knowledge, that God knows all the possible choices that a person would make in any possible world. If I understand it right, with middle knowledge it's not really about seeing the future, it's more about God creating a world that He, from His middle knowledge, chose to create based on His knowledge of every choice that would be made by every human being.

So, in that sense, God determined what world to create based on what choices He "foreknew" from His middle knowledge that we would make. He chose the best possible world that could be created with creatures of free will knowing all that would transpire from beginning to end because of His middle knowledge. He didn't determine our choices, rather His knowledge of what our choices would be determined what world He ultimately decided to create.

That's not to say that that's the only possibility of how to explain God's foreknowledge, but it's probably one of the better ways.

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dorel

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Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2016, 04:05:46 am »
I think that the middle knowledge does not solve the problem.
we have this data:
1) god cannot be wrong.
2) god is in time.
3) god foreknows our future actions (decisions).
4) persons have the freedom to choose what they do in the present and also in the future.
now, imagine this conversation:
- god, I will  eat pizza sunday?
- yes, you will eat pizza sunday.
Sunday
- god, I want to eat macaroni, please, can I?
-NO, because if you eat macaroni I was wrong Monday when I told you that you will eat pizza.
so, after god answers your question (monday), you lose the freedom to eat Sunday what you want.