dorel

  • **
  • 61 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2016, 03:09:30 am »
The example with the macaroni and pizza, you can say that is simple.
But we can change it with the conversation between Jesus and Peter:
Jesus: Peter you will deny me three time
Peter: I don't want to deny you. Can I not deny you?
Jesus: O Peter, you know I cannot be wrong, if I told you that you will deny me tomorrow, you have to deny me.
I was actually thinking about Jonah and God telling him to tell the people of Nineveh that in 40 days it would be destroyed. The question is, is it wrong for God to change His mind, if indeed that is what He did? That's probably another discussion on it's own.

However, the way I understand middle knowledge is that it proceeds logically before actualizing the world. Since God chose to actualize this world based on the choices that each person would make He would know from His middle knowledge that in this world Peter would choose to deny Jesus and could therefore predict it before it happened. The choice wasn't determined, rather the world in which Peter would do so was determined.

So the fact that Peter wouldn't do otherwise is not because he wasn't free to do so, it was simply because the world was actualized according to the circumstances in which he would freely choose to do just what he did.
i understand exactly as you the middle knowledge.
god create this world based on the choices that each person would make He would know from His middle knowledge that in this world Peter would choose to deny Jesus and could therefore predict it before it happened.
I think that the problem is that we suppose that just god knows the future.
But what if i ask god about my future action, and with the knowledge in my mind, I choose to prove that god was wrong, and freely do otherwise.
Can I?
well,suppose I can not
I can not do otherwise even if I want to do so

I think that might be akin to wanting to fly like a bird without anything externally to aid you. God has given us free choice within certain limits. Obviously He's not going to let you, nor do I think He is even able to let you prove Him wrong, as He is by nature the perfect being.

That's not to say you don't have free choice, it's just that you don't have free choice to do anything you want. You are free to choose up to a certain point, but not beyond the boundaries that God has set for everyone.


So, you say that if I ask god and he says to me that I will do action A, from this moment I'm not free to do other action A1 or A2....
But then, I can ask god to count me my entire life, and from this moment I'm absolutely corseted to do every action that god told me that I will do, annihilating this way my freedom of action.
Now, think a bit.
The real issue is that god knows what I will do, not that I also know my future actions.
From the moment that you accept that god foreknows my actions, and that god is in time, you have to accept that I cannot do anything opposite to his knowledge.
Is different if god is not in time, and he from outside simply see our action and obviously foreknows our actin, actually just knows our actions.
The last point is, if I'm not free to proof that god is wrong about what I will eat sunday, macaroni or pizza, I'm not free at all.
Again, I agree with your statement "From the moment that you accept that god foreknows my actions, and that god is in time, you have to accept that I cannot do anything opposite to his knowledge." But in Middle Knowledge that doesn't seem to mean you couldn't have done something else. If you did it would simply have changed God's knowledge of what you were going to do. In  other words, He would have known that that's what you were going to do.

My understanding of Middle Knowledge is simply that God knows what we will do in any given circumstance. That's all. There's no causal relationship. Just cause I know what someone will do in certain circumstances doesn't cause that person to choose what to do. I simply know the person well enough to "know" what that person in those circumstances will do. Applying that concept to Middle Knowledge seems to make sense of it, at least to me it does.

But let's back up here a little bit. For one thing God is under no obligation to tell us anything. If He thinks it will be beneficial to tell us something then He most likely will. However, if we're just out to prove Him wrong obviously He's not going to allow that to happen. He's just going to say, "Sorry, that's something you don't need to know." So even as a thought experiment it seems to me like an illogical proposition.

So it seems to me that what you're proposing is akin to having a square circle. We can't prove God wrong, otherwise He wouldn't be God. And if you say that we're not free at all because we're not allowed to do something that would enable us to prove God wrong, that seems like saying I can't make a square circle, and because I'm not free to do anything I want then I'm really not free at all. Doesn't sound like sound reasoning to me.

Of course we have freedom! That's evident from every day living. To deny that is to deny reality. We make free choices all of the time. But it seems to me that just because we can't do everything we want to doesn't mean we're not free at all. It's just that the freedom we do have is not unbridled freedom to do anything, including the logically impossible.
"But let's back up here a little bit. For one thing God is under no obligation to tell us anything. If He thinks it will be beneficial to tell us something then He most likely will. However, if we're just out to prove Him wrong obviously He's not going to allow that to happen. He's just going to say, "Sorry, that's something you don't need to know." So even as a thought experiment it seems to me like an illogical proposition."

Is not good enough your argument
The premise is that I also can know my future actions
How? asking god to tell me
And god being in time, can tell me
Is not enough you to say that god doesn't want to tell me
You have to prove that it is impossible that god tells me about my future actions
Secondly, you have to prove also that it is impossible that a free being proves that god is wrong about something that implies he's  one free actions.
Or, you have to prove that even if the being has to fulfill the predicted, he is still free.
The problem with the middle knowledge is that doesn't foresees the situation that I described:
-the free being can know his future action (from god)
-the freedom of the being imply the ability, freedom to do otherwise
-since he cannot do otherwise, he is not a free being
And in order to be truth, the middle knowledge has to be true in any given situation.
about the squared circle:
It seems to me that the squared circle is to suppose that god can know what decision will take a free being in the future.
Do not forget, my point is:
-it is logically imposible to know the future action of a free being.
-so god cannot be wrong about our future actions because he doesn't knows our future actions.
-this imply that god is not omniscient?
-no, because to be omniscient do not imply to know something that is logically imposible to know

Those are good points. I see what you're saying. Well, I don't have an in depth understanding of Middle Knowledge so I'm not sure how to answer. Here's a few things to possibly consider.

Jesus: Peter you will deny me three time
Peter: I don't want to deny you. Can I not deny you?
Jesus: Even though you don't want to deny me, that's what you will not because you can't do otherwise but because you won't. The reason I can tell you is I know what you will do in any situation and in that situation that's what you will do.

Peter didn't want to deny Him, but he did. Did he have a choice? Yes. It wasn't because he couldn't have done otherwise, but despite his desire not to he just didn't have the courage to act in accordance with what he desired. And Jesus knew that would be the case.

This could quite possibly be the case in any event that God tells us about our future actions. That despite our every intention to do the opposite God knows that we will do just what He says we will because He knows exactly how things will play out ahead of time, and we don't. Middle Knowledge isn't about whether we can do differently, but whether we would do differently. And whether or not we would ever do differently in such a case as you are suggesting is not something we can know with certainty.

Another possible problem is that God has set the world up for events to naturally unfold in a certain order. However, He still has the option to intervene in supernatural ways that would alter those events. In the event of Him giving us information about our future actions that would be such a case that would alter the originally intended structure of events.

So, what can God actually tell us in such a case if He Himself is in time? At that point in time when we first ask Him, can He tell us before He tells us what we will do--what we will do that would entail what we will do after He tells us what we will do? Or is He bound to tell us only what we will do at the moment He tells us even though He knows once He tells us it will add a new factor via a supernatural event that could change the outcome? If so, which for Him to be truthful it would seem like it, what we do after He tells us might be different because of the new supernatural event that has been interjected after He told us, namely Him telling us what we will do.

Let me put it another way. Seems like if God is in time, and He were to tell us, He has to tell us what our future actions will be at the point in time He tells us. Since after He tells us we have "new" information via a supernatural event that we didn't have at the time God told us what we would do, that would mean that the situation is no longer the same as it was at the moment God told us what we were going to do.

Even though the information was correct at the time it was told, it was no longer be correct after God told it. So was He wrong? Arguably not. Because, as far as I can tell, He has to tell the truth of the way things are at that point in time that He tells it even though He knows that once He tells us it may no longer be the case. If He were to tell us differently at that point in time before He told us it wouldn't be true.

In that case I don't see that God telling us something that ends up happening differently as being wrong. It's just that He couldn't tell us at that point in time what we would do once He told us what we were going to do because the supernatural event of Him telling us hadn't happened yet.

Like I said, I'm not very well versed in Middle Knowledge, or even philosophy for that matter, but these are just some possible counters that in my limited knowledge I've been able to come up with.
"Peter didn't want to deny Him, but he did. Did he have a choice? Yes. It wasn't because he couldn't have done otherwise, but despite his desire not to he just didn't have the courage to act in accordance with what he desired. And Jesus knew that would be the case."
Here is the point: Did he have a choice?
-from the moment that Jesus tells Peter that he will deny him, Peter has no choice.
-actually we cannot accept not even the possibility that Peter will not deny Jesus
-why? because Jesus prediction cannot be wrong in no way.
So, if Peter accept that Jesus is god, he has to know that he cannot be wrong, and also has to accept that he cannot not to deny Jesus, he is no longer free to not deny Jesus.
Actually Peter's answer to Jesus is stupid and emotional, when he says that "no I will not deny you"
The right answer from Peter is:
-sence you ar god, you cannot be wrong, I have to deny you, I will deny you.
The question is:
-where is comes from the knowledge of Jesus, change in any way the freedom of action of peter?
-the answer is no
-the time between the prediction and the action of denying Jesus, Pedro does not have the freedom to act as he want.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 03:19:14 am by dorel »

1

toknowthetruth

  • **
  • 810 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2016, 09:58:37 pm »
dorel:

Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I was asking in my last post is how can you be sure that your premise is true regarding God telling you the future and you having free choice to do the opposite and prove God wrong. My point in regards to the first example is that even in the case that you do have free will you don't really know that you can do something different than what God has said you were going to do.

Why? Because it's always possible that the reason God knows you will do something is because the circumstances may be such that you either can't resist to do it in spite of not wanting to, or it may be that there wouldn't be any alternative.

Whether or not that's a good argument, I don't know. But that's the point I was attempting to get across. The second example was also along the same lines of a possible problem with your premise. I hope that's a bit more clear.

2

dorel

  • **
  • 61 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2016, 03:51:59 am »
"Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I was asking in my last post is how can you be sure that your premise is true regarding God telling you the future and you having free choice to do the opposite and prove God wrong. My point in regards to the first example is that even in the case that you do have free will you don't really know that you can do something different than what God has said you were going to do."
I think that is a misunderstand here:
-you has to prove that it is impossible that god tell me my future actions
or
-you has to prove that if god tells me that I will do action A, I still preserve my freedom to act differently
My point is very clear
-god if knows the future can tell me my future action (Jesus tell Peter his future action)
-if got tell me that I will do action A, I cannot do any other action A1( Peter has to accept that he cannot not to deny Jesus)
- therefore the foreknowledge of god is contrary to the free will
an example:
god tells you
you will eat pizza this Sunday, and also god explain you how is that he knows that you will eat pizza.
from his middle knowledge he knows that you will be in a situation in which you'll decide to eat pizza
today is tuesday
you are a free being, you can ask yourself :
god told me that I will eat pizza
me, as a free being can Sunday not to eat pizza?
my honest answer has to be;
no, I cannot not to eat pizza Sunday
Another point is this:
Peter is free to not deny or to deny Jesus.
God/Jesus knows what Peter will choose to do, freely.
Jesus tells Peter that he will deny him.
Peter can ask himself:
now/in this moment/in the present I'm free to not deny Jesus?
no, because Jesus prediction cannot be wrong
I'm now, not free to act differently to the predicted
I have now, no choice
I have now, no freedom to act differently.
Is a blasphemy from Peter even to try to not deny Jesus, trying to prove that Jesus prediction is wrong/that god can be wrong.
Sorry for repeating myself but Peter cannot accept not even an "maybe I will not deny Jesus"
why?
-because an "maybe I will not deny Jesus" imply an "maybe Jesus is wrong"
-and this is inconceivable, inacceptable
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 04:03:43 am by dorel »

3

toknowthetruth

  • **
  • 810 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2016, 08:57:57 pm »
"Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I was asking in my last post is how can you be sure that your premise is true regarding God telling you the future and you having free choice to do the opposite and prove God wrong. My point in regards to the first example is that even in the case that you do have free will you don't really know that you can do something different than what God has said you were going to do."
I think that is a misunderstand here:
-you has to prove that it is impossible that god tell me my future actions
or
-you has to prove that if god tells me that I will do action A, I still preserve my freedom to act differently
My point is very clear
-god if knows the future can tell me my future action (Jesus tell Peter his future action)
-if got tell me that I will do action A, I cannot do any other action A1( Peter has to accept that he cannot not to deny Jesus)
- therefore the foreknowledge of god is contrary to the free will
an example:
god tells you
you will eat pizza this Sunday, and also god explain you how is that he knows that you will eat pizza.
from his middle knowledge he knows that you will be in a situation in which you'll decide to eat pizza
today is tuesday
you are a free being, you can ask yourself :
god told me that I will eat pizza
me, as a free being can Sunday not to eat pizza?
my honest answer has to be;
no, I cannot not to eat pizza Sunday
Another point is this:
Peter is free to not deny or to deny Jesus.
God/Jesus knows what Peter will choose to do, freely.
Jesus tells Peter that he will deny him.
Peter can ask himself:
now/in this moment/in the present I'm free to not deny Jesus?
no, because Jesus prediction cannot be wrong
I'm now, not free to act differently to the predicted
I have now, no choice
I have now, no freedom to act differently.
Is a blasphemy from Peter even to try to not deny Jesus, trying to prove that Jesus prediction is wrong/that god can be wrong.
Sorry for repeating myself but Peter cannot accept not even an "maybe I will not deny Jesus"
why?
-because an "maybe I will not deny Jesus" imply an "maybe Jesus is wrong"
-and this is inconceivable, inacceptable
I'm no expert, but to my understanding all I have to do is show that your premise is not more plausible than it's negation. At least that's what I've understood from what I know about philosophy. You seem to be saying that I have to prove the impossibility of your premise which seems to me to be incorrect. But maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or I just don't know enough about philosophy? If I've misunderstood what you are saying can you clarify? Or if I have understood correctly can you explain to me, if you don't mind, why in philosophy it's required to prove a premise impossible in order to counter it?

4

toknowthetruth

  • **
  • 810 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2016, 08:36:58 am »
Actually, thinking about it some more, I think your premise not only has to be possible but plausible as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it that's the case I don't see how having such access to God's foreknowledge that we could ask Him at a whim would be plausible. Seems to me, if at all plausible, it would be utter chaos at best.

5

dorel

  • **
  • 61 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2016, 03:51:11 am »
Actually this discussion is meaningless, because we know that Jesus told Peter about his future action, what he will do in the future.
We know that is not impossible to know our future actions from god.
Now, if Jesus make the affirmation because he knows the future, and he cannot be wrong,
then, Peter is right in thinking:
I'm now, not free to not deny Jesus
I'm now, not free to do otherwise
I have now, not freedom of choice
Since Jesus is god and cannot be wrong, Peter in no way can think that he is free to act as he want.
Maybe Peter was not conscience in that moment who  tells him that he will deny in the future somebody.
Was a god who cannot be wrong
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 05:27:15 am by dorel »

6

toknowthetruth

  • **
  • 810 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2016, 10:23:21 pm »
Actually this discussion is meaningless, because we know that Jesus told Peter about his future action, what he will do in the future.
We know that is not impossible to know our future actions from god.
Now, if Jesus make the affirmation because he knows the future, and he cannot be wrong,
then, Peter is right in thinking:
I'm now, not free to not deny Jesus
I'm now, not free to do otherwise
I have now, not freedom of choice
Since Jesus is god and cannot be wrong, Peter in no way can think that he is free to act as he want.
Maybe Peter was not conscience in that moment who  tells him that he will deny in the future somebody.
Was a god who cannot be wrong

What I'm saying is that I agree with what you said that it is possible that we could ask God and He could tell us what we will do in the future. But, the way I see it, it's not plausible for us to have such access to God that He would tell us whatever we wanted to know. So it seems to me that you're argument, although not impossible, is not very probable.

And in the case of Middle Knowledge the fact that what Jesus told Peter was based upon His knowing how Peter would choose under the circumstances would not have any causal affect on Peter's actual decision in the circumstances he would ultimately face. No more than a person knowing what someone would likely do in certain circumstances would have any causal affect on what the person actually chooses to do when faced with those circumstances.

7

dorel

  • **
  • 61 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2016, 06:30:33 am »
I'm sure you know the god and evil argument from atheists.
they says: a good god will not allow evil to occur in the word
the theist replies that:
-a good god can have good reasons to allow evil to occur
if you want to refute the theist argument is not enuf to say:
-it is improbable on is not plausible that a good god will allow evil to occur in the world
you have to show that:
-it is logically impossible to exists a reason to allow evil in the world
the same is true in our case.
is not enuf you to say that:
-is not plausible, or it is improbable that god tells us our future actions.
you have tu prove that:
-it is impossible for some reason, that god tells us our future actions

now, about the causality:
I'm not argue that the foreknowledge cause the action.
my argument is that the foreknowledge eliminates the freedom of action.
shortly:
is Peter free to not deny Jesus after the prediction, knowing that Jesus is god and cannot be wrong?
can answer this question?

8

toknowthetruth

  • **
  • 810 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2016, 10:16:33 pm »
I'm sure you know the god and evil argument from atheists.
they says: a good god will not allow evil to occur in the word
the theist replies that:
-a good god can have good reasons to allow evil to occur
if you want to refute the theist argument is not enuf to say:
-it is improbable on is not plausible that a good god will allow evil to occur in the world
you have to show that:
-it is logically impossible to exists a reason to allow evil in the world
the same is true in our case.
is not enuf you to say that:
-is not plausible, or it is improbable that god tells us our future actions.
you have tu prove that:
-it is impossible for some reason, that god tells us our future actions

now, about the causality:
I'm not argue that the foreknowledge cause the action.
my argument is that the foreknowledge eliminates the freedom of action.
shortly:
is Peter free to not deny Jesus after the prediction, knowing that Jesus is god and cannot be wrong?
can answer this question?

Oh, OK. I guess in that case one possible answer I can come up with is that it isn't possible for us to have access to God's mind without Him willingly giving us access to it. Just as it's not possible for me to have access to your mind without you willingly giving me access to it. On that basis I would argue that what you are proposing is not possible in any world.

For Peter, from his response he seemed to think he was free to act according to his own will regardless of what Jesus said. And, again, I don't see how God's foreknowledge can prevent us from choosing one way or another since "knowing" has no causal power, at least as far as I can tell.

9

toknowthetruth

  • **
  • 810 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2016, 08:33:29 am »
Something else to consider. Wouldn't it be logically impossible for God to tell you what you were going to do in the future knowing that your intention was to act in a contrary way to whatever He told you?

10

Jenna Black

  • ***
  • 2806 Posts
  • Truth is worth pursuing.
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2016, 11:30:33 am »
I'm sure you know the god and evil argument from atheists.
they says: a good god will not allow evil to occur in the word
the theist replies that:
-a good god can have good reasons to allow evil to occur
if you want to refute the theist argument is not enuf to say:
-it is improbable on is not plausible that a good god will allow evil to occur in the world
you have to show that:
-it is logically impossible to exists a reason to allow evil in the world
the same is true in our case.
is not enuf you to say that:
-is not plausible, or it is improbable that god tells us our future actions.
you have tu prove that:
-it is impossible for some reason, that god tells us our future actions

now, about the causality:
I'm not argue that the foreknowledge cause the action.
my argument is that the foreknowledge eliminates the freedom of action.
shortly:
is Peter free to not deny Jesus after the prediction, knowing that Jesus is god and cannot be wrong?
can answer this question?

Oh, OK. I guess in that case one possible answer I can come up with is that it isn't possible for us to have access to God's mind without Him willingly giving us access to it. Just as it's not possible for me to have access to your mind without you willingly giving me access to it. On that basis I would argue that what you are proposing is not possible in any world.

For Peter, from his response he seemed to think he was free to act according to his own will regardless of what Jesus said. And, again, I don't see how God's foreknowledge can prevent us from choosing one way or another since "knowing" has no causal power, at least as far as I can tell.
Exactly. Knowing has not causal power. That sums it up. Great! Thanks.
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

11

dorel

  • **
  • 61 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2016, 03:12:21 am »
I'm sure you know the god and evil argument from atheists.
they says: a good god will not allow evil to occur in the word
the theist replies that:
-a good god can have good reasons to allow evil to occur
if you want to refute the theist argument is not enuf to say:
-it is improbable on is not plausible that a good god will allow evil to occur in the world
you have to show that:
-it is logically impossible to exists a reason to allow evil in the world
the same is true in our case.
is not enuf you to say that:
-is not plausible, or it is improbable that god tells us our future actions.
you have tu prove that:
-it is impossible for some reason, that god tells us our future actions

now, about the causality:
I'm not argue that the foreknowledge cause the action.
my argument is that the foreknowledge eliminates the freedom of action.
shortly:
is Peter free to not deny Jesus after the prediction, knowing that Jesus is god and cannot be wrong?
can answer this question?

Oh, OK. I guess in that case one possible answer I can come up with is that it isn't possible for us to have access to God's mind without Him willingly giving us access to it. Just as it's not possible for me to have access to your mind without you willingly giving me access to it. On that basis I would argue that what you are proposing is not possible in any world.

For Peter, from his response he seemed to think he was free to act according to his own will regardless of what Jesus said. And, again, I don't see how God's foreknowledge can prevent us from choosing one way or another since "knowing" has no causal power, at least as far as I can tell.

your argument does not hold.
-premise:
we know our future actions by asking God.
How you can refute this premise?
demonstrating that:
It's impossible to ask God.
or
It's impossible for God to tell us something about our future actions.
this means or:
God not want to tell us.
or
God can not tell us our future.
it is clear that if Go have foreknowledge, God can tell the future, Jesus has done with Peter.
therefore, you have to prove that it is impossible that God wants to tell us something about our future.
I'm curious how you will prove that.

about causality:
I'll give an example that maybe can help us.
I ask you:
What are you going to eat Sunday?
you freely answer me:
- I'm going to eat pizza
your choice is free, right?
Now, if I tell you that you have to eat what you've told me you're going to eat, and you can not change your decision freely, you are truly free?
so, this is my point:
-the foreknowledge of God eliminate our freedom of action, not that cause our action
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 06:38:14 am by dorel »

12

toknowthetruth

  • **
  • 810 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2016, 06:54:04 pm »
I'm sure you know the god and evil argument from atheists.
they says: a good god will not allow evil to occur in the word
the theist replies that:
-a good god can have good reasons to allow evil to occur
if you want to refute the theist argument is not enuf to say:
-it is improbable on is not plausible that a good god will allow evil to occur in the world
you have to show that:
-it is logically impossible to exists a reason to allow evil in the world
the same is true in our case.
is not enuf you to say that:
-is not plausible, or it is improbable that god tells us our future actions.
you have tu prove that:
-it is impossible for some reason, that god tells us our future actions

now, about the causality:
I'm not argue that the foreknowledge cause the action.
my argument is that the foreknowledge eliminates the freedom of action.
shortly:
is Peter free to not deny Jesus after the prediction, knowing that Jesus is god and cannot be wrong?
can answer this question?

Oh, OK. I guess in that case one possible answer I can come up with is that it isn't possible for us to have access to God's mind without Him willingly giving us access to it. Just as it's not possible for me to have access to your mind without you willingly giving me access to it. On that basis I would argue that what you are proposing is not possible in any world.

For Peter, from his response he seemed to think he was free to act according to his own will regardless of what Jesus said. And, again, I don't see how God's foreknowledge can prevent us from choosing one way or another since "knowing" has no causal power, at least as far as I can tell.

your argument does not hold.
-premise:
we know our future actions by asking God.
How you can refute this premise?
demonstrating that:
It's impossible to ask God.
or
It's impossible for God to tell us something about our future actions.
this means or:
God not want to tell us.
or
God can not tell us our future.
it is clear that if Go have foreknowledge, God can tell the future, Jesus has done with Peter.
therefore, you have to prove that it is impossible that God wants to tell us something about our future.
I'm curious how you will prove that.

about causality:
I'll give an example that maybe can help us.
I ask you:
What are you going to eat Sunday?
you freely answer me:
- I'm going to eat pizza
your choice is free, right?
Now, if I tell you that you have to eat what you've told me you're going to eat, and you can not change your decision freely, you are truly free?
so, this is my point:
-the foreknowledge of God eliminate our freedom of action, not that cause our action

Wouldn't it be logically impossible for God to tell you what you were going to do in the future knowing that your intention was to act in a contrary way to whatever He told you?

13

dorel

  • **
  • 61 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2016, 03:19:02 am »
"Wouldn't it be logically impossible for God to tell you what you were going to do in the future Knowing That your intention was to act in a way to whatever Contrary I Told You?"
Let's see:
-Is logically impossible that God tells us something about our future, knowing that we will try to do the opposite?
-No, Jesus told Peter that he going to betray him, and I guess he knew that Peter is going to try to do the opposite.
What is logically impossible is that Peter does something that is contrary to the foreknowledge of Jesus (God), who by definition can not go wrong.
So Peter can say:
-It is logically impossible that I will not betray Jesus, since a god said that I will betray him.
-I'm not free to do otherwise.

14

toknowthetruth

  • **
  • 810 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2016, 08:43:43 pm »
"Wouldn't it be logically impossible for God to tell you what you were going to do in the future Knowing That your intention was to act in a way to whatever Contrary I Told You?"
Let's see:
-Is logically impossible that God tells us something about our future, knowing that we will try to do the opposite?
-No, Jesus told Peter that he going to betray him, and I guess he knew that Peter is going to try to do the opposite.
What is logically impossible is that Peter does something that is contrary to the foreknowledge of Jesus (God), who by definition can not go wrong.
So Peter can say:
-It is logically impossible that I will not betray Jesus, since a god said that I will betray him.
-I'm not free to do otherwise.

Well, my question is not whether God can tell us what we will do if He knows we will try to do something contrary. My question is whether God can tell us what we will do if He knows we will do something contrary to whatever He tells us. Those are two different questions. To me the second case seems logically impossible.