"My assertion is that to ask God to tell you what you are going to do when He knows You will do contrary to whatever He tells you is logically impossible."You don't see that this is impossible if you accept that god have middle knowledge.If you can do the contrary of what god predicted, is that god does not have middle knowledge.What he told you is not based on his middle knowledge, is just a guess if you can do otherwise.Instead if god has middle knowledge he will predict you what you will actually do.And you will do the predicted action.So, in a world created by god, in which in a situation S, a person P will do action A, the logically impossible will be to do NOT A.In no way will be impossible to say you that you will do action A.
You're proposing an inherent contradiction here. If God is your creator and knows your essential will, and He created you and the environment you're in to begin with, then your decisions are secondary to God's act of creation and instance of prior foreknowledge.
Quote from: kravarnik on June 04, 2016, 10:42:58 amYou're proposing an inherent contradiction here. If God is your creator and knows your essential will, and He created you and the environment you're in to begin with, then your decisions are secondary to God's act of creation and instance of prior foreknowledge.Good point. Hadn't thought about that. Thanks for pointing that out.
"Similarly, personal free will doesn't equal "random stuff for no reason," but is usually based on essential nature of sort. God knows my essential nature and how it would prompt me to act in certain way in particular situation. Thus, God may know my essential nature sufficiently enough as to know what I would do in different situations. But this knowledge would be, because He knows my essential nature and the subsequent actions that my will desires based on my nature, and not because He pre-determined me to be so and do so."This has nothing to do with middle knowledgeActually what you propose is no knowledge, is guessingIn other words, god knows us very well, not that he foreknows our actions.He knows that it is highly probable that in a given situation S we will do action A , because we are such kind of persons who will do action Athis is not knowledge, is probabilistics CALCULATION " It's akin to saying "if God knows atoms in existence would structure in different forms and shapes, and say stars are spherical, what would happen if in reality, stars were square?" Then, it's either logically impossible for such a world to exist, where God creates a universe and foreknows that stars will be spherical, but they are square ; or God's foreknowledge then would be that stars will be square."So we are like stars, just atoms?Our atoms have free will or our spirit?If what you say is that god having middle knowledge foreknows that a person P will do action A in a given situation S, I'm agree.now a concrete question:if Peter would know about the middle knowledge of god, he can ask himself:-a god told me that I will deny him-can I freely choose to not deny him?-NO, because the god who told mi is the god who created the world in which I will deny him, and he cannot be wrong about my future actions.
-the middle knowledge is about a predetermined world which allows free will
actually a justified true belief is knowledge.how this work?is like this:I ask you-do you believe that 2+2=4If you know matt your answer will be YES I BELIEVESo, you are justified in believing that 2+2=4, you have a justified true belief, A KNOWLEDGENow, let us to suppose that you do not know matt, and your answer will be:I BELIEVE that it is highly probable that 2+2=4.Now, this is not a justified true belief, is not knowledge, is guessing with a high probability to being right.The middle knowledge is about knowing not guessing.Where comes god's middle knowledge/foreknowledge.from knowing us very well?NOIt comes from knowing which world he created from all the possible worlds.simplifying to two worlds.1)god can create a world in which Peter freely deny Jesus (action A)2)god can create a world in which Peter feely not deny Jesus (action not A)So, god's foreknowledge will come from knowing which world he created, not from knowing what kind of person is Peter.God knows that a person P will do action A in a given situation S, because he created the world in which the person P will do action A in the situation S.Is not that god created a world in which he knows us very well, therefore he knows what we will do.God, among an infinite number of possible worlds created this one, and he knows what we will do in any situation.An exemple:Peter in a given situation could deny or could not deny Jesus, freely.So, god created the world in which Peter freely will choose to deny Jesus.But is not that Peter is such a creation of god who in any given situation will deny Jesus.In this world Peter deny Jesus, but exist other posible worlds in which he can not deny Jesus, but those worlds was not created, because god want to create this one.If you want to say that what god knows is that Peter is such a being which in any given situation will deny Jesus, i will reply to you that such a person is no a free being at all.Why?Because Peter is god's creation, and god created him in such way that no matter the circumstances, he will deny Jesus, he has no election. "What is being proposed in your rationale is explicitly defining the world as pre-determined, while I am giving you a rationale where free will is compatible with foreknowledge, where God's knowledge of your action is predicated upon Him knowing you very well. Instead of saying how this is incoherent, you re-assert your notion that - God knows these things, because He pre-determines them to happen in this way."Ok, now I see you don't know what is middle knowledge.You know that this discussion is about the supposed contradiction between free will and middle knowledge?-a pure pre-deterministic world has no free will-in a pure free world god has no foreknowledge-the middle knowledge is about a predetermined world which allows free willGo do your homework and come back
"An example - you see a hole in the ground, and you know how holes come to be, thus you can infere that a certain amount of force HAVE BEEN applied, or NEED TO BE APPLIED IN THE FUTURE if you were to form yourself a hole. If X, then Y. Similarly, God knows you're X kind of person, in Y kind of situation, then He through logical inferences could arrive at you doing K."I see you constantly comparing us with objects, or natural phenomena.Are we just objects?If we take your example of gravity I can ask you:-we have two objects, an 80 kg mannequin and a person with the same kg, same shape.-you believe that if we throw them from an airplane the outcome will be the same?I think not, because the free being can take a form what increases his aerodynamics resistance,so they will not fall down with the same acceleration.Can be predicted our actions as a natural phenomena?How you quantify in your prediction our free will?"The same way predictive theories in science are considered knowledge. Scientists wholly know gravity, they also know about some object's essential nature(mass, shape and form, density, etc.), thus when they know both(the object's essential nature and its environment), they yield true results."Where from you take that a prediction is knowledge?If you predict that in such and such situation an object will do so and so, if is not testable and repeatable is considered not to be part of science.If you make a prediction will be true if after you test it result to be right, if not will be a false prediction.And if your prediction imply a free being how you will test it? You will put me 10 time in the same situation S, to see how i will act?If 7 from 10 time i will betrayed god what will be your conclusion?"Middleknowledge is when God knows what would one do when put in different circumstances. If I were a rich, spoiled brat I'd do X, and if I were a poor peasent I'd do Y. This is in simple terms. But to give an answer to your assertions:"No, this is totally wrong, entirely.Craig explain in youtube what is middle knowledge, you can see it, but in essence is:-two posible worlds:1)Petre deny Jesus.2)Peter not deny Jesus.God created world number 1, so he know that in this world Peter will choose do deny Jesus.