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Atheist in Louisiana

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Re: Did Religion Hold Progression Back?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2016, 01:54:16 pm »
It's not the bible that holds people back from growth.  What holds humanity back from growth is the mindset that some questions are unanswerable, or that some answers are unquestionable.  In the first case, it hinders humanity because it stops people from looking for those answers.  If you already believe the question cannot be answered, looking cannot be fruitful.  Why try to figure out what causes earthquakes if you believe that question can't be answered?  In the second case, it hinders humanity because it stops people from looking for real answers.  If you believe the sun goes around the Earth, then learning otherwise makes you a danger to the powers that be, as Galileo learned all too well.  If religion had its way, we would still be in the Dark Ages, which is when Christianity (a religion) had its way.

First of all, something being unquestionable, or unanswerable, isn't a mindset motivated, or promoted, by the Bible. Whether a conclusion would be held with high certainty, to the point of the individual thinking it "unquestionable," is a matter of personal epistemology, not a religious teaching.

That's not true.  Question the authority of the bible, and you are going against the teachings of the bible.  Question the crucifixion of Jesus and you question a basic foundation of Christianity.  Question the concept of original sin and you undermine the entire foundation of Christianity.  Questioning something isn't questioning it if you can only come to one conclusion and be in accordance with the religion.

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And let's not lie to ourselves - science, politics and the such, have also been guilty of that same thing. Political ideologies have been held, or shunned, due this same mindset. Scientific theories as well(the Big Bang being resisted initially, because too much leverage would be given to some religious worldviews ; the theory of evolution is held by many as some sacred relic, to which if you object, you're taken as blasphemer).

Science functions on the basis of proving things wrong.  Questioning things is a fundamental principle of science.  Objecting to evolution doesn't make you a blasphemer; it makes you unscientific and ignorant of science.

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Also, you have the West in this state, precisely because Christianity had its way - major contributors to science progress, in the course of history, have been Christian(heck, even in these modern secularized times - where science for the major part is naturalistic, - you have about 65% of Nobel Prize winners being Christian...). The Church promoted universities, literacy, social and health care and the likes ; the Church(and in specific - Irish Christian monks) saved ancient knowledge, by preserving ancient works from barbarian invasions - which included the burning of libraries, - and copied them to provide literacy for the following generations. The modern scientific method is formulated by Christian thinkers - Bacon and Descartes. One of the most cherished, prestigeous, intricate works of art have been produced by Christian artists - music, literature, paintings and the likes, - dedicated most of the time to the Chiristian Lord and God.
Those Nobel Prize winners are Christian, but they didn't win because they were Christian.  Modern scientific method may have been invented by people who were Christian, but their Christianity isn't what developed it.  It shouldn't surprise you that the establishment with the most money would produce the most works of art. 

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If I follow the logic of your argument - citing a single case(of Galileo) as showing how Christianity in particular has "hindered humanity," then I may as well cite the rejection of the scientific community of the Big Bang theory as showing how science is hindering humanity.

The Church eventually, when the case for their position being wrong became strong, ceded the point. Just like the scientific community did with the Big Bang theory. It was a matter of fact, not a matter of principle, that the Church disagreed with Galileo(whom didn't providing good evidence for his position). To draw the conclusion that Christianity hindered HUMANITY, because some hypothesis was rejected due to insufficient evidence, is rather outrageous in terms of logical coherency.
The scientific community just doesn't believe that you are right when they disagree with you.  The church tries to kill you when they disagree with you.  Claiming that the scientific community is just as bad as the church is factually wrong.
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loganonekenobi

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Re: Did Religion Hold Progression Back?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2016, 06:56:22 pm »
I would like to bring up a point I have experienced from Christians I have encountered.  I cannot say what percentage has this view but I have heard some say "we shouldn't waste time and money on the space program because A) we have plenty of problems right here on earth (I can sympathize with this but this is a logical argument) and B) God is coming soon to retrieve the faithful and to pass judgement on the non-believers.
In the mind of a realist the last argument is most certainly not logical.  Current science states that we have had mass extinction events in the past and will have one in the future.  We as a species are unique in that we have the chance of prolonging our survival if we can get off this rock and on to other places.
The idea that God won't let his faithfull die of the natural causes that has killed 99.9% of every species that has ever lived is lazy at best and dangerous at worst.
If 1/3 of the world is Christian and most believe that God is coming soon then I see that as a large potential that is not only being unused but also could be opposing what might possibly help the human race onward.  I'm not going to assert that all 2+billion christians aren't contributing to our space race but if the idea is prevalent.....
Just s thought that is related to our science where religion is involved.

This once again needs to be shown to be tying to what Christianity teaches. Christianity never teaches "don't go to outter space, cause I am the Lord and you shouldn't do so, because I say so!" Christianity teaches that the Earth is important and that's the scene where most significant and crucial events will happen.

However, whether to oppose space programs, or not, isn't at all in the sphere of Christian teaching.


And again I'd reference my first post in the thread - you need to show connections between this behavior/belief/mindset and some Christian teaching. Just because someone is a Christian, and they believe X, or behave Y way, or have Z mindset, doesn't mean it necessarily comes from Christian teaching. Just like the scientists who created the atomic bomb, although scientists, cannot be said to be prompted up by science to create mass destruction weapons. And if one claims so, they need to show a connection, and not merely cite those, who created a mass destruction weapon, being scientists, thus science taught them to destroy and create tools for destruction.


While I understand your view, and I know such people exist - as you describe them, - I object to the underlying assumption that IT HAS TO TIE TO CHRISTIANITY! It does not have to, and if you claim that it does, then you need to show the connection, and not merely cite those, who have such mindset, being Christian, thus Christianity is responsible.

Hitler claimed to be a Christian. Then went to kill millions of Jews. According to this assumption, this must have been a Christian teaching... but Christianity never has any text that even remotely commands God's followers to exterminate Jews. And when Hitler did so, it was actually AGAINST what Christianity teaches - being merciful toward others, helping others, forgiving others, etc.


The same with the kind of people you cite - those do not hold such a mindset, because somehow Christianity has a teaching that leads to people opposing space programs.

I hope you won't take the above in the wrong way. But it indeed is true that Christianity does not speak on space programs, and if some Christian holds any kind of view toward it, it's their personal one, prompted up by personal reasons, or some other, and not religious ones.
In my view religion is a tool just like any other that is used in multiple ways by multiple people.  The fact or fiction of its teachings is not important to me and I don't think it's important to science really. As Galileo said "the bible teaches us how to go to heaven not how the heavens go."  What is important is how the human processes the teachings.   Each human will process it in their own unique way.  I dont judge the master by what the master says.  I judge the master by how the student is.  So no.  I won't be citing anything.  I dont have to when the students are all around me. Also I never said all christians are of this opinion.

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Natus Regis

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Re: Did Religion Hold Progression Back?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2019, 04:14:41 pm »
This is one of the many arguments I hear from a atheist. I want to know your thoughts on this. How did the Bible or Christianity responsible to hold back humanity from progressing in technology and all that?

I have gotten a comment on one atheist (I think he maybe one)
"And my honest opinion religion is holding humanity back, yes it also can help people I do not disagree with that. But consider the things we don't quite know yet and our drive to make discoveries its what drives man to always push forward. It seems like religion can never really go forward unless somehow someone sees a new translation. Let me make an example: Just watch a children's movie its used as a device to stimulate emotion and sometimes teach us an overall life lesson either about relationships, sharing or caring for others and the thing you would do for them. Its a method humans have evolved to stimulate our minds and help us deal with situations on a humanistic level. But we all know these emotions and lessons have derived from fiction and at no point any positive outcome makes the movie more real. The problem with religion is the translation of this learning technique has been lost and at some point someone said those stories were actually real. Because come on some of those stories are just very old methods of thinking but that learning from a story technique still very much works. I love religious people just as much as my fellow atheists and I never want to change someone just help them think for themselves. Some people put religion above objective/logical thinking and when that starts to happen religion is holding someone back. Yes you may think by opposing religion will lead you into endless pain of hell but I do not have that fear because I do not think it exists. But I think anyone who uses the technique of fear of torture to not let you judge him seems like the worst kind of evil to me."
Thats a response I got asking that question.

But I also like a christian response.
Just a quick response. (And I agree with some of the things kravarnik put. I am adding a few things or strengthening some of the things he has stated.)

If it concerns Christianity specifically -- and I mean real Christianity, not the abuse of teachings or power and the like -- then I do not see how it held back progression. (Look, e.g., for A. J. Schmidt on the topic.) Christianity has been responsible, wherever it spread, for seriously elevating the sanctity of human life. In most areas where Christianity spread, slavery was abolished. There was Christian opposition in Roman times against gladiator games, child murder, child abandonment and other such things, and Roman politics after some time outlawed such evils. In the fourth century hospices and hospitals came from Christians (inspired by Matthew 25:36). Women's rights were seriously taken care off, and they were allowed property. There was also the teaching of charity (St. Francis). Bishop Ambrose in the fourth century wanted the emperor to repent from his killing thousands, and stated that the emperor is not above the law. In the thirteenth century there was the Magna Carta (liberty and justice). Education: universities originated in monasteries. Christianity moved scientists to exploration, as they theologically thought that the world was ordered. There was also Christian progress concerning music (e.g., Bach). Anti-slavery acts (e.g., Wilberforce). What about the introduction of holidays? And even these days there is much good coming from Christian institutions or Christian charity acts.

In the West it was the belief in a Creator that spurred on science. Almost all the great earlier scientists were at least theists. Think of great names such as Francis Bacon (the father of modern science), Galileo, Kepler, Pascal, Boyle, Newton, Farady, Babbage, Mendel, Pasteur, Kelvin, Maxwell. These days in contrast there are atheist scientists who think they may tread upon the paths of natural theology, philosophy and so on, but who know hardly a thing concerning such topics.

Obviously there are forms of religion out there that may be seriously harmful if carried out. Let alone the abuse by certain holders of power (think, e.g., about some of the people representing Christianity, yet committing serious crimes).

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jayceeii

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Re: Did Religion Hold Progression Back?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2019, 08:36:42 am »
Obviously there are forms of religion out there that may be seriously harmful if carried out.
The good in this world continues to revolve around private, selfish interests, and Christianity did nothing except to enhance toleration within those natural paradigms. Humanity progresses by the principles more humans are always an unquestionable good, and that the resources may be used any way that pleases this generation. So if you say Christianity has done good in the world, I rejoin that it has only stood on the principle of “be fruitful and multiply,” taking no responsibility for the needs of the future generations. Truly objective persons might take issue with these principles of neglect, but I haven’t met anyone like that this lifetime, nor seen any evidence such a one exists upon the globe. In fact to speak openly about the material balance of the whole planet in its total time frame, leads to universal persecution, including from scientists who study such balances. God might not agree the planet Earth is disposable, and call Christianity its worst abuser.

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Wretch

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Re: Did Religion Hold Progression Back?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2019, 07:45:10 am »
To the OP:

Not all religions are equal in their effect upon technological development.  The Islamists set back science by centuries when they destroyed all the libraries and such.

Tell your friend to use his empirical method and rigorous statistical analyses to compare the technological development of Christian versus pagan societies.

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jayceeii

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Re: Did Religion Hold Progression Back?
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2019, 02:49:44 pm »
Not all religions are equal in their effect upon technological development.  The Islamists set back science by centuries when they destroyed all the libraries and such.

Tell your friend to use his empirical method and rigorous statistical analyses to compare the technological development of Christian versus pagan societies.
The tragic thing to me, is that men rushed into technology before stabilizing the planet, establishing the deep truths of religion, and finding the paths to joy and sustainability. A gadget in a monkey’s hand, does not make a better monkey. World history is notable by the absence of any serious guidance by the religions in how to keep the planet wonderful.

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Wretch

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Re: Did Religion Hold Progression Back?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2019, 10:26:14 pm »
What, you're not itching to get your very own gene editing machine?

Mostly, the planet is a lot more self-stabilizing than many had expected.  All the failed predictions of the man-made CO2 climate alarmists testify to that.  Many are now projecting decades of cooling.  Not good.

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jayceeii

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Re: Did Religion Hold Progression Back?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2019, 10:18:04 am »
What, you're not itching to get your very own gene editing machine?

Mostly, the planet is a lot more self-stabilizing than many had expected.  All the failed predictions of the man-made CO2 climate alarmists testify to that.  Many are now projecting decades of cooling.  Not good.
Actually my career is in molecular biology, but I’m not allowed to bring in any higher standards if I expect to keep a job. I think here men are underestimating the dangers in a rush to bring products to market to make money, since consumer demand is the real force driving science. The part that bothers me most is how the plants spread their altered genes into the native populations. They’re moving far too swiftly, possibly courting catastrophe.

The Holy Spirit is the final arbiter regarding global warming and other environmental threats. Politics will not save the Earth. Life will be good on Earth, though today is dark. My point above is that wise and fully rational people, would’ve found out the existential truths first, and pushed science forward very slowly, savoring each tiny step while ensuring there was no pollution or other hazards. Our civilization was built from greed.