4teatwo

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Found only an old thread here on the subject  but would like some logic clarification.
The definition in Hebrew, that faith is evidence of the unseen, e.g. the faith bearer is evidence for the things that his belief makes him do and that can be tested and checked for coherence. It describes the trust shown in the truth of a belief that allows humans to reach beyond what is known. Thus faith is the expression of trust in the truth of a proposition. The definition of faith to be a belief in the absence of proof is logically incoherent as it would imply the possibility of belief in the presence of proof. Similarly belief in the absence of evidence is logically incoherent. It is a pity that Dr Craig has to my knowledge never addressed this argument properly but belief in the absence of evidence is a logical contradiction as you can only believe in evidence you have as any cognitive process requires evidence. It appears that Atheists entertain the possibility that a belief can be formed without evidence. To a rational thinking person evidence is required to form a belief. You then have to justify to yourself how to act upon this evidence and how the evidence is coherent with things you know already, e.g. things that are proven. So the thing you come to belief to be true has to be unproven to be coherent with causing a believe, e.g. (think and not know) p=true.

Similarly if you confuse evidence with proof, to base a belief on proof appears to be the belief of an idiot as if you require proof to form a belief, you would be unable to acquire knowledge, e.g. you must be so dense that you do not accept the proof as truth verification, thus prove that you "don't get it".

So therefore the term "belief in the absence of evidence" is apparently some mental state specific to people that operate on a logic beyond belief. To admit to have a non-belief e.g. have the absence of a cognitive process when it comes to a proposition is a strange phenomenon. Now if faced with a proposition about anything presented to us in reality leads one to switch of ones brain, where is the point in trying to start a discussion? It sounds like trying to write a word document on a computer that is switched off.

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jakswan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2015, 02:12:17 am »
I think faith is defined as,  complete trust or based on spiritual experience.

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Nelvan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2015, 02:34:58 am »
Beliefs are practical; they let you get along in life.
Faith is impractical, and has nothing to do with life.

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TheCross

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2015, 03:40:31 am »
I think faith is defined as,  complete trust or based on spiritual experience.

Its not restricted to spiritual experience.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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TheCross

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2015, 03:44:44 am »
Beliefs are practical; they let you get along in life.
Faith is impractical, and has nothing to do with life.

I take it on faith that people wont crash into my car while im driving.

Seems to me, to be perfectly coherent with life nelvan.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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jakswan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2015, 04:01:33 am »
Beliefs are practical; they let you get along in life.
Faith is impractical, and has nothing to do with life.

I take it on faith that people wont crash into my car while im driving.

Seems to me, to be perfectly coherent with life nelvan.

No that is trust not faith.

Definition
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/faith

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Biep

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2015, 04:33:10 am »
I think this thread did a fairly good job of explaining faith.
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Greers75

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2015, 04:46:07 am »
Ultimately there is no such thing as proof about anything including science, its just a somewhat convenient construct. This dialogue isn't even happening your just a brain in a vat of chemicals and you cannot prove a damn thing.

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TheCross

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2015, 04:46:16 am »
Beliefs are practical; they let you get along in life.
Faith is impractical, and has nothing to do with life.

I take it on faith that people wont crash into my car while im driving.

Seems to me, to be perfectly coherent with life nelvan.

No that is trust not faith.

Definition
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/faith

Definition of faith in English:
noun

[MASS NOUN]
1Complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
this restores one’s faith in politicians


Thats from your link.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Bertuzzi

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2015, 05:24:48 am »
Faith is what you believe despite the evidence, etc.
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4teatwo

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2015, 05:35:37 am »
Faith is what you believe despite the evidence, etc.
sounds like you have faith in your definition :-)

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4teatwo

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2015, 05:48:16 am »
I think this thread did a fairly good job of explaining faith.
thanks for the link, had some nice examples and is in agreement with my thinking in it to be trust into the truth of the thing one has faith in and trust is the finite element of investing yourself into that relationship. I take it that faith denouncers struggle with the idea of having to give a bit of themselves into somethin

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2015, 05:52:26 am »
If faith ultimately means trust, why not simply use the word trust ?

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jakswan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2015, 06:02:29 am »
Beliefs are practical; they let you get along in life.
Faith is impractical, and has nothing to do with life.

I take it on faith that people wont crash into my car while im driving.

Seems to me, to be perfectly coherent with life nelvan.

No that is trust not faith.

Definition
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/faith

Definition of faith in English:
noun

[MASS NOUN]
1Complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
this restores one’s faith in politicians


Thats from your link.

Yes, notice the word complete, I do not have faith in anything.

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Rostos

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2015, 06:18:43 am »
Beliefs are practical; they let you get along in life.
Faith is impractical, and has nothing to do with life.

I take it on faith that people wont crash into my car while im driving.

Seems to me, to be perfectly coherent with life nelvan.

No that is trust not faith.

Definition
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/faith

Definition of faith in English:
noun

[MASS NOUN]
1Complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
this restores one’s faith in politicians


Thats from your link.

Yes, notice the word complete, I do not have faith in anything.

Been on a plane before? Train? Bus?
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