jakswan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2015, 07:17:15 am »
Beliefs are practical; they let you get along in life.
Faith is impractical, and has nothing to do with life.

I take it on faith that people wont crash into my car while im driving.

Seems to me, to be perfectly coherent with life nelvan.

No that is trust not faith.

Definition
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/faith

Definition of faith in English:
noun

[MASS NOUN]
1Complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
this restores one’s faith in politicians


Thats from your link.

Yes, notice the word complete, I do not have faith in anything.

Been on a plane before? Train? Bus?

Yep, I don't completely trust it won't crash.

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TheCross

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2015, 07:31:55 am »
Semantics 101, i hate these threads.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Rostos

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2015, 07:59:07 am »
Beliefs are practical; they let you get along in life.
Faith is impractical, and has nothing to do with life.

I take it on faith that people wont crash into my car while im driving.

Seems to me, to be perfectly coherent with life nelvan.

No that is trust not faith.

Definition
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/faith

Definition of faith in English:
noun

[MASS NOUN]
1Complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
this restores one’s faith in politicians


Thats from your link.

Yes, notice the word complete, I do not have faith in anything.

Been on a plane before? Train? Bus?

Yep, I don't completely trust it won't crash.

The very fact you enter a plane, train or bus is evidence that you are exercising some sort of faith in the pilots, train and bus drivers... Otherwise you wouldnt enter them.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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jakswan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2015, 08:15:48 am »
Semantics 101, i hate these threads.

Yes these threads are tiresome, we have dictionaries for this sort of thing. 

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jakswan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2015, 08:16:52 am »
The very fact you enter a plane, train or bus is evidence that you are exercising some sort of faith in the pilots, train and bus drivers... Otherwise you wouldnt enter them.

Nope I exercise trust, not faith, you want to redefine the word be my guest I'm going to define it as a dictionary does.

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Rostos

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2015, 08:17:18 am »
The very fact you enter a plane, train or bus is evidence that you are exercising some sort of faith in the pilots, train and bus drivers... Otherwise you wouldnt enter them.

Nope I exercise trust, not faith, you want to redefine the word be my guest I'm going to define it as a dictionary does.

Trust is a major component of faith.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2015, 08:53:26 am »
Quote
Trust is a major component of faith.

So there is more to faith than trust ?  Like what ?

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jakswan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2015, 08:58:06 am »
The very fact you enter a plane, train or bus is evidence that you are exercising some sort of faith in the pilots, train and bus drivers... Otherwise you wouldnt enter them.

Nope I exercise trust, not faith, you want to redefine the word be my guest I'm going to define it as a dictionary does.

Trust is a major component of faith.

Faith is defined as complete trust, I do not have complete trust in anything.

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Nunovalente

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2015, 09:10:27 am »
Faith is being confident in what you hope for (why would you be without evidence??) convinced about facts you cannot yet see. (Hebrews 11.) That is the biblical view.
It's being sure about what is not seen.

Faith is not spiritual. Everyone exercises faith. Both faith that, and faith in...

Faith is being confident in things hoped for, the conviction of facts not yet seen. Hebrews 11.
Everyone exercises faith in something. What is your faith in?

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Steve B

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2015, 09:16:05 am »
Similarly if you confuse evidence with proof, to base a belief on proof appears to be the belief of an idiot as if you require proof to form a belief. . .

I think this is the most important point the OP is making.  I do see some atheists (not all) constantly asking for "proof" of what we believe.  I have to say that the question does not seem to grasp that we offer no proof. . . we offer only evidence.

Why Does a Son Trust his Father?

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

-- Hebrews 11:1

A son has faith in his father not because he has evidence that he will fulfill his future promises, but because he has evidence that he has fulfilled his past promises.

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Nelvan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2015, 09:17:42 am »
Belief:  I believe that road will take me to New York.  That means I believe that road goes to the direction of New York.  I believe that if I were to take that road, it would take me directly to New York.
Faith:  I have faith despite everything that can go wrong during the trip like being in a car crash or the car breaking down, that there is something blocking the road.  I have faith that it would have been worth it in the end.  That if things turn out badly, I was in the right to take the trip anyway.
That is why I said faith is impractical.  By having faith, you automatically let enter some doubt.  There is no blind faith.  The opposite of doubt is not faith.  The opposite of doubt is certainty.  I also said faith is not of this world because faith automatically introduces alternative worlds where what you believe can be wrong.  Faith is different than belief because you are participating in faith actively and risking.
A driverless car doesn't car about alternatives even though it may be programmed to consider alternatives.  A driverless car doesn't car about reaching New York.  It is simply programmed to.  And a driverless car doesn't care about failure.  It is not programmed to care.  That is why I said faith is impractical.  But faith does make us human.  And it is out of this world since humans see what a driverless car can not.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2015, 09:19:38 am »
Quote
A son has faith in his father not because he has evidence that he will fulfill his future promises, but because he has evidence that he has fulfilled his past promises.

So faith is the reasonable conviction that the future will generally resemble the past ?  So faith is uniformartinism ?

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Steve B

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2015, 09:36:05 am »
Belief:  I believe that road will take me to New York.  That means I believe that road goes to the direction of New York.  I believe that if I were to take that road, it would take me directly to New York.
Faith:  I have faith despite everything that can go wrong during the trip like being in a car crash or the car breaking down, that there is something blocking the road.  I have faith that it would have been worth it in the end.  That if things turn out badly, I was in the right to take the trip anyway.
That is why I said faith is impractical.  By having faith, you automatically let enter some doubt.  There is no blind faith.  The opposite of doubt is not faith.  The opposite of doubt is certainty.  I also said faith is not of this world because faith automatically introduces alternative worlds where what you believe can be wrong.  Faith is different than belief because you are participating in faith actively and risking.
A driverless car doesn't car about alternatives even though it may be programmed to consider alternatives.  A driverless car doesn't car about reaching New York.  It is simply programmed to.  And a driverless car doesn't care about failure.  It is not programmed to care.  That is why I said faith is impractical.  But faith does make us human.  And it is out of this world since humans see what a driverless car can not.

Wow. . .

Really awesome explanation.    Got it copied to my note book for use later on.

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Nelvan

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2015, 09:44:28 am »
Thanks Steve.  I think that is the first complement I've had on this forum.

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Steve B

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2015, 09:45:26 am »

So faith is the reasonable conviction that the future will generally resemble the past ?  So faith is uniformartinism ?

Faith means educating your view of things which may not be seen based on evidence.  Proof requires no faith.  Evidentiary claims do.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 09:47:01 am by Steve B »