Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2015, 10:44:37 am »
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A son has faith in his father not because he has evidence that he will fulfill his future promises, but because he has evidence that he has fulfilled his past promises.

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Faith means educating your view of things which may not be seen based on evidence.  Proof requires no faith.  Evidentiary claims do.

But a son that has faith in his father as you said, has evidence that he had fulfilled his past promises.  He has personally seen the evidence.  You are saying contradictory things here.  Does the son have faith in his father or not ?

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Nunovalente

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2015, 11:53:19 pm »
Belief:  I believe that road will take me to New York.  That means I believe that road goes to the direction of New York.  I believe that if I were to take that road, it would take me directly to New York.
Faith:  I have faith despite everything that can go wrong during the trip like being in a car crash or the car breaking down, that there is something blocking the road.  I have faith that it would have been worth it in the end.  That if things turn out badly, I was in the right to take the trip anyway.
That is why I said faith is impractical.  By having faith, you automatically let enter some doubt.  There is no blind faith.  The opposite of doubt is not faith.  The opposite of doubt is certainty.  I also said faith is not of this world because faith automatically introduces alternative worlds where what you believe can be wrong.  Faith is different than belief because you are participating in faith actively and risking.
A driverless car doesn't car about alternatives even though it may be programmed to consider alternatives.  A driverless car doesn't car about reaching New York.  It is simply programmed to.  And a driverless car doesn't care about failure.  It is not programmed to care.  That is why I said faith is impractical.  But faith does make us human.  And it is out of this world since humans see what a driverless car can not.

"I believe that this road will take me to New York." Having believed this to be the case, you have a need an desire to go to New York. Confident of what you hope for (this road if travelled on will enable you to reach New York), convinced about what you do not see ( you cannot see the end, you've not travelled it yet), you begin to take that journey. It is faith that is exercised once you begin that trip. It is not mystical. It is just as the Hebrew writer describes it.

If you travel on the road, and find it takes you to DC not NY, the object of your faith ( the road map or sign or whatever/whoever caused you to think it would take you to NY) is what let you down, not faith. Not the road.
If is the credibility of the object of faith that matters, not faith itself.
 
If the road takes you to your destination as hoped for, what you put your faith in ( what caused you to believe that the road would take you to NY) is proven to be true. You now know.
But you now know, having exercised faith, faith in what gave you the information was true, and faith that the road does in fact take you where you want to go. Until you act upon the belief, it is mere belief.

I don't see how faith is impractical, its very practical. Its how we discover truth.

Thomas Eddison had a hope. He hoped to harness unseen facts, convinced by the evidence, he produced the light bulb. By faith, he put into practice, experimenting time and time again. Every bulb he made he was convinced it would work. But over 1000 attempts failed. He had faith. Faith that, and faith in. But the failure was not with faith, by faith he discovered how not to make a build 1000  different ways. Faith did not fail, but the object of his faith ( the way he built the bulbs) was what failed. Eventually he succeeded in fulfilling his hope. The previously unseen facts, by faith were made real.

Some may call this trust, some say this is not faith, regardless of definitions, THIS is the faith the bible is talking about.

Why?

Because this is the faith we all exercise daily. Every human being exercises faith in someone or something. So when the bible says its not possible to please God, except by faith, it brings it all back to a simple, basic concept that every human is both capable of. Its a level playing field. Faith is not for the super spiritual, not for the super intellectual, for the rich, popular, faith is something we are all not only capable of, but we do every day. 

I don't know anyone who does not exercise faith in someone or something. We need to stop seeing faith as a religious or merely spiritual thing. Its not.
While the object of our faith may differ, i.e. some of us put our faith in God, just because some don't put their faith in God, does not mean they don't have faith, nor does it mean they don't put their faith in something or someone. It just means that God is not the object of their faith. They exercise faith in someone or something else.
Faith is being confident in things hoped for, the conviction of facts not yet seen. Hebrews 11.
Everyone exercises faith in something. What is your faith in?

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Gordy

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Re: faith: belief without evidence or belief in the absence of proof?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2015, 12:07:21 am »
Father Baron explains what faith really is.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m_4PSgFjtvI
ZEAL FOR MY FATHER'S HOUSE CONSUMES ME