Kajak

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How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« on: June 19, 2016, 07:45:53 am »
After Jesus baptism Matthew 4:1 states "Then Jesus was led up by theSpirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil" This raises for me many questions. Could he fail for the Devils temptations? If Jesus is God he obviously could not.
So why did the spirit test him? If he would fall for one the temptations would the the trinity become duety?
 Why did the Devil even bother to test God? When the Devil offers Jesus "the Kingdoms of the world and their glory" why would that be a temptation for the creator of the universe? Was this all just an act to teach us about resisting temptations? But interestingly when Jesus passed the test, in 4:11 "the Angels came ministered unto him"
This makes to me at least , not much sense if Jesus really was God since the outcome had t him beo be that way, so why did the angels come and ministered to him. And why did the Spirit bother to let be tested in the first place.
If one looks at the letter of James 1:13 "Let no one, when he is tempted say "I am being tempted by God"; for God feels no temptations to evil, and himself tempts nobody"
I honestly does not understand how these scriptures can be coherent with the doctrin of trinity. I am no expert on the trinity, so if anyone care to explain these things, I would be very grateful
Thank kaj

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Aaron Massey

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2017, 06:38:35 am »
Nothing to explain, you figure out a logical fault with the trinity in the scriptures. 

That said... there is a possible explanation, that in what ever heavenly rules of war God and Satan run... it may have something to do with that.

Satan may have said that if even God himself was sent to earth as a man he would sin, and that would prove man itself is a bad creation. (as an extension of the argument regarding Job)

So... say God comes to earth in the flesh... stripped of all his attributes but given all the temptations of man to be sinful, and perhaps some epistemic veil of not thinking he is God per se, yet some ptophetic duty to be fullfilled.... 

Could even God himself survive such a place put in the same predicament as man and not sin?    Well the answer seems to be yes.

But how God himself could be human and call himself the Son of God would then be a problem.
Proverbs 8:30 "then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man."

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jayceeii

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2019, 09:24:56 am »
The temptations of Christ were put into the Bible for the sake of consistency in the religion. From understanding these, one can see the higher mind introducing the religion was intending to play into human superstition and body-identification, that Jesus might be part man and part God through an unspecified mechanism it was known nobody would be wise enough to question. Humans think if it’s a body, it must be a man, from lack of inner insight, specifically regarding their own souls. Jesus was ultimately behind this charade, but it was fleshed out later by Paul and others. Humans seek another human as their leader, failing to comprehend that only someone different from them, could save.

The way out of darkness is seen once the true qualities of the humans are known. Then as in Keanu’s film, one bursts out of the Matrix, rolling on the ground laughing at the ludicrous nature of these temptations. Referencing the specific temptation listed here, Jesus would not want to be king of a mob of apes, to borrow from Heston’s film. Anyone who sees the real human nature knows there is no friendship to be found there, and to be king of that is a curse nonpareil. Jesus already knows Himself to be king of this mess, but anyone would kill Him for saying so, so He remains silent. I’m surmising it isn’t just Jesus, but the ministering angels will also laugh at such temptations, leaving these verses.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2019, 10:59:04 am »
Elvis is dead.
The Earth is not flat.
The Holocaust actually happened.

There are four lights.
The sun does not revolve around the Earth.
Weed makes people violent.
A fetus is a person.

Obama was not born in Kenya.
Gradualism (Evolution) is a lie.
Unicorns of legend aren't real.
The Apollo 11 really did land on the moon.

If you were born with a "twig and berries" you're male otherwise you're female.
Fanatics are irrational.
Little boys are raped by gays.
Abiogenesis is a lie.

1. Jesus was a man. (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 5:15)
2. His name literally means Jehovah Is Salvation.
3. He ceased to exist when murdered. (1 Corinthians 15:3)
4. God has always existed. (Habakkuk 1:12)
5. God gave Jesus life. (Acts 2:32; Galatians 1:1)
Therefore, Jesus is not God.

No one is entitled to their own version of reality.

May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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jayceeii

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2019, 09:28:56 am »
1. Jesus was a man. (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 5:15)
2. His name literally means Jehovah Is Salvation.
3. He ceased to exist when murdered. (1 Corinthians 15:3)
4. God has always existed. (Habakkuk 1:12)
5. God gave Jesus life. (Acts 2:32; Galatians 1:1)
Therefore, Jesus is not God.

No one is entitled to their own version of reality.
mm: 1. Jesus was a man. (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 5:15)

jc: Jesus is called a man in the Bible because the world has not been able to bear the truth that the Creator takes on a body and dwells alongside the actual men, who are creatures that He supports from Invisibility by the functions of the Holy Spirit. The Lord has also not known Himself to be fully God, because it would have been disadvantageous. Very little is introduced into the Lord’s mind, that is not intended for revelation in His lifetime.

This cannot be the long-term solution, because the more discrimination the Invisible God brings into the body which bears His literal consciousness, the more painfully obvious it becomes that the creatures are sorely wanting in all good traits. Formerly the Lord has been seen as the top figure, without reckoning the isolation this brings, or noticing the Lord must bend down continuously to interact with anyone, no one anywhere near His higher standards. Eventually the religion must include that God can dwell on His planet.

mm: 2. His name literally means Jehovah Is Salvation.

jc: The name YHWH or Jehovah is also the Lord’s name, but it is intended to point more directly to the Invisible God, though as Jesus said no one approaches the Invisible God except through the Lord. Of course the Lord is not tied to a name, nor is any person. If Jesus’ name means “Jehovah is salvation,” then the name is embroiled in a metaphysical error. Jesus did not bring salvation to men, nor does the Invisible God intend to bestow it.

mm: 3. He ceased to exist when murdered. (1 Corinthians 15:3)

jc: The sentence illustrates the body-identification of the human mind. Only Jesus’ body ceased to exist, as a body, when He was killed. The atoms are now dispersed, a fact the Christians have not taken into account in their ridiculous superstitions their bodies will be reassembled at Judgment. Who’d want one of those older bodies anyway, when God is continually driving evolution forward into better bodies? The good news about Jesus is not that He resurrected a body, which is a power God does not have, but that His spirit left the body, prepared for further adventures, but as they’ve been so far, misadventures.

mm: 4. God has always existed. (Habakkuk 1:12)

jc: As God has existed, so has Jesus, what I call His “embodyable portion.”

mm: 5. God gave Jesus life. (Acts 2:32; Galatians 1:1)

jc: The works of the apostles are steeped in superstition and benightedness, hardly worth remembering except to note these were bent down to human desires and faulty conceptions. If you want to say God put His embodyable portion in a body, it is accurate.

mm: Therefore, Jesus is not God.

jc: No reasoning has been presented, just hatred. The human thinks if he has seen the body, he has known the man, but in fact there are myriad ranks of souls, some from above. A mind that cannot see the inner dimension is called indiscriminate and crude, nor can education help much. In this period of weak teachings from God, man has revealed his deficiencies proudly, conceiving the fact he found no opposition meant none existed.

mm: No one is entitled to their own version of reality.

jc: Actually each soul takes its own version of reality as a function of its limitations or capacities. MM has taken his own version of a reality, proud he can see a human body but unable to develop insights about mind or spirit, or to form a proper concept of authority. It isn’t a matter of entitlement, he just can’t be pushed any higher. If you stand beside him and say, “Look at these two people, obviously Person A has a much higher quality personality than Person B,” he responds in guttural tones like the apes use, “Two bodies, I have seen it all!” Men bind things to their level, calling violence the only power.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2019, 01:04:11 pm »
After Jesus baptism Matthew 4:1 states "Then Jesus was led up by theSpirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil" This raises for me many questions. Could he fail for the Devils temptations? If Jesus is God he obviously could not.
So why did the spirit test him? If he would fall for one the temptations would the the trinity become duety?
 Why did the Devil even bother to test God? When the Devil offers Jesus "the Kingdoms of the world and their glory" why would that be a temptation for the creator of the universe? Was this all just an act to teach us about resisting temptations? But interestingly when Jesus passed the test, in 4:11 "the Angels came ministered unto him"
This makes to me at least , not much sense if Jesus really was God since the outcome had t him beo be that way, so why did the angels come and ministered to him. And why did the Spirit bother to let be tested in the first place.
If one looks at the letter of James 1:13 "Let no one, when he is tempted say "I am being tempted by God"; for God feels no temptations to evil, and himself tempts nobody"
I honestly does not understand how these scriptures can be coherent with the doctrin of trinity. I am no expert on the trinity, so if anyone care to explain these things, I would be very grateful
Thank kaj

The problems you raise break the Athanasian Crred, it cannot withstand such careful scrutiny. This is significant because "God is not a God of confusion." (1 Corinthians 14:33 (RSV) This is crucial since the Great Teacher commanded, “You must love Jehovah your God . . .  with your whole mind.’” (Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27)

Indeed, “not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame.” (1 Corinthians 1:26-28) Think back, if you will, to the kinds of men Jesus chose to be his apostles? Were they the Intelligentsia of their day? Absolutely not! These were typical men. (Acts 4:13)

Why is this fact so important? Because if these simple, ordinary men were to obey and 'love Jehovah with their whole mind' then they had to understand what they were being taught. (Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27)

Hence, the need for, not mysteries and pompous gobbledygook, but  logic and reasonableness. In fact, all 1st century Christians were admonished to understand, to “thoroughly grasp mentally what is the breadth and length and height and depth and to know that they may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.” (Ephesians 3:18,19)

The people of the ancient city of Beroea, by way of example, were lauded and set as a model for each one of us for the simple reason that, when Paul and Silas visited them to instruct them on truth, these 'carefully examined the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.' (Acts 17:11)

Did Paul condemn them because they made an effort to reason things out? Did he inform them that their inquiries were pointless since absolute truth was simply unobtainable until they got to heaven? Far from it! In reality, he encouraged these to make sense of the details. He certainly wasn't fearful of their examination of everything he was educating them on. Why was this the case? Simply because "God is not a God of confusion" and they were required to 'love Jehovah with their whole mind'. (1 Corinthians 14:33; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27)

Truth be told, with soooo many fanatics running around spreading their mendacious ideologies on what Biblical truth is, now more than ever, it is vital that we “not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” (1 John 4:1)
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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jayceeii

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2020, 09:43:49 am »
After Jesus baptism Matthew 4:1 states "Then Jesus was led up by theSpirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil" This raises for me many questions. Could he fail for the Devils temptations? If Jesus is God he obviously could not.
So why did the spirit test him? If he would fall for one the temptations would the the trinity become duety?
 Why did the Devil even bother to test God? When the Devil offers Jesus "the Kingdoms of the world and their glory" why would that be a temptation for the creator of the universe? Was this all just an act to teach us about resisting temptations? But interestingly when Jesus passed the test, in 4:11 "the Angels came ministered unto him"
This makes to me at least , not much sense if Jesus really was God since the outcome had t him beo be that way, so why did the angels come and ministered to him. And why did the Spirit bother to let be tested in the first place.
If one looks at the letter of James 1:13 "Let no one, when he is tempted say "I am being tempted by God"; for God feels no temptations to evil, and himself tempts nobody"
I honestly does not understand how these scriptures can be coherent with the doctrin of trinity. I am no expert on the trinity, so if anyone care to explain these things, I would be very grateful
Thank kaj

The problems you raise break the Athanasian Crred, it cannot withstand such careful scrutiny. This is significant because "God is not a God of confusion." (1 Corinthians 14:33 (RSV) This is crucial since the Great Teacher commanded, “You must love Jehovah your God . . .  with your whole mind.’” (Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27)

Indeed, “not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame.” (1 Corinthians 1:26-28) Think back, if you will, to the kinds of men Jesus chose to be his apostles? Were they the Intelligentsia of their day? Absolutely not! These were typical men. (Acts 4:13)

Why is this fact so important? Because if these simple, ordinary men were to obey and 'love Jehovah with their whole mind' then they had to understand what they were being taught. (Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27)

Hence, the need for, not mysteries and pompous gobbledygook, but  logic and reasonableness. In fact, all 1st century Christians were admonished to understand, to “thoroughly grasp mentally what is the breadth and length and height and depth and to know that they may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.” (Ephesians 3:18,19)

The people of the ancient city of Beroea, by way of example, were lauded and set as a model for each one of us for the simple reason that, when Paul and Silas visited them to instruct them on truth, these 'carefully examined the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.' (Acts 17:11)

Did Paul condemn them because they made an effort to reason things out? Did he inform them that their inquiries were pointless since absolute truth was simply unobtainable until they got to heaven? Far from it! In reality, he encouraged these to make sense of the details. He certainly wasn't fearful of their examination of everything he was educating them on. Why was this the case? Simply because "God is not a God of confusion" and they were required to 'love Jehovah with their whole mind'. (1 Corinthians 14:33; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27)

Truth be told, with soooo many fanatics running around spreading their mendacious ideologies on what Biblical truth is, now more than ever, it is vital that we “not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” (1 John 4:1)
Christians eagerly await Judgment, and many will be found on that day with large sections of the Bible not only studied carefully, but even memorized. They think this brings them salvation, but the Bible doesn’t even come close to revealing God’s lowest standards, and the salvation they imagine will be theirs is reigning in pleasures, not liberation. Those relying heavily on the Bible are using it as a hammer to promote their own points of view, and the text of the Bible lends itself to this from its brevity and vagueness. Those believing in the Bible think they know God and His intent, but a strange conundrum is that Jesus asked men to believe in Him, when He did not believe in men enough to tell them the truth. The Bible presents only a mockery of God’s guidance.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2020, 12:23:52 pm »
Those believing in the Bible think they know God and His intent, but a strange conundrum is that Jesus asked men to believe in Him

With the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.  So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized.  (Malachi 3:18 cf.  Titus 1:16)

These preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

Meaning that, just as we are able to distinguish genuine legal tender apart from Monopoly money, any sincere person can make a distinction between a Christian and an Anti-Christian (Satanist).

May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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jayceeii

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2020, 01:39:33 pm »
Those believing in the Bible think they know God and His intent, but a strange conundrum is that Jesus asked men to believe in Him

With the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.  So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized.  (Malachi 3:18 cf.  Titus 1:16)

These preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

Meaning that, just as we are able to distinguish genuine legal tender apart from Monopoly money, any sincere person can make a distinction between a Christian and an Anti-Christian (Satanist).
Christianity proceeds by rumors and innuendo, and this is merely a repetition of the same. Jesus drew no “bright line.” He offered neither guidance for good living nor for salvation.

Perhaps you refer to, “Whosoever believeith in me shall have eternal life,” but if the soul is inherently immortal this isn’t promising a certain benefit. Nor is belief defined beyond sitting in the pews alongside the rest parroting liturgy and lisping hymns of plain flattery.

If you believe that Jesus was God, this ought to mean you believe God can take on a human body. As a rational person you should see that if God has this power, He would use it more than once, eager to see His civilizations flourishing, even if by indirect aids.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2020, 03:57:42 pm »
Those believing in the Bible think they know God and His intent, but a strange conundrum is that Jesus asked men to believe in Him

With the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.  So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized.  (Malachi 3:18 cf.  Titus 1:16)

These preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

Meaning that, just as we are able to distinguish genuine legal tender apart from Monopoly money, any sincere person can make a distinction between a Christian and an Anti-Christian (Satanist).
Jesus drew no “bright line.” He offered neither guidance for good living nor for salvation.

“That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Accordingly, consider your fatuous claims dismissed. 

Believe it or not, you can start questioning your claims of an absolute, incontrovertible truth.  It's all up to you.  I admit it's not an easy path but it's possible because many before you have succeeded. 


May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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Maxximiliann

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2020, 03:59:22 pm »
Those believing in the Bible think they know God and His intent, but a strange conundrum is that Jesus asked men to believe in Him

With the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.  So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized.  (Malachi 3:18 cf.  Titus 1:16)

These preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

Meaning that, just as we are able to distinguish genuine legal tender apart from Monopoly money, any sincere person can make a distinction between a Christian and an Anti-Christian (Satanist).
If you believe that Jesus was God

Except that only The Father, Jehovah, is ontically God Almighty -
 
"There is actually to us one God the Father." - 1 Corinthians 8:6
"And now, O Jehovah, you are our Father." - Isaiah 64:8
"You, O Jehovah, are our Father." - Isaiah 63:16

"Is it to Jehovah that YOU keep doing this way, O people stupid and not wise? Is he not your Father[?]" - Deuteronomy 32:6 (Bracket mine.)
"You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”" - Revelation 4:11

"Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One." - Matthew 23:9
"“Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us?" - Malachi 2:10

"Know that Jehovah is God." - Psalm 100:3
"Jehovah is in truth God.” - Jeremiah 10:10
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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jayceeii

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Re: How could Jesus be tested if he was the "God-man"?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2020, 05:01:17 pm »
“That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Accordingly, consider your fatuous claims dismissed. 

Believe it or not, you can start questioning your claims of an absolute, incontrovertible truth.  It's all up to you.  I admit it's not an easy path but it's possible because many before you have succeeded. 
Indeed, you have claimed that Jesus drew a “bright line” without evidence, and so I dismiss it, but with evidence. You cannot point to such a bright line, meaning you are admitting the Bible to be rumors and innuendo, as I aver. Or, can you point to it? You seem to be rushing in with the crowd wherever they are going, but the crowd is unguided.

Any truth I could communicate to you, would be interpreted by you in a way I did not intend. All come to truth by their own routes, nor can one really give his truth to another. Believe me, I won’t be following your path. We are at total loggerheads over every issue. It is your claim that Jesus gave guidance that is fatuous. You have imagination, not truth.