Archived

Teleological Argument

Read 9599 times

Dogbyte

  • **
  • 394 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2016, 10:15:25 am »
Then it is clear that you do not understand the concept of love.  That's unfortunate and there's nothing I can do for you to explain why killing someone is at odds with loving them if you don't understand it.  Forcing someone to die against their will is a violation of free will.

But it can be justified, for instance, when a human freely chooses to take the lives of others, as punishment they pay with their own life.


1

Dogbyte

  • **
  • 394 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2016, 10:16:29 am »
You don't seem to be familiar with the reason God Himself gave for destroying those of His creatures who were so totally evil and corrupt that they deserved to be destroyed (justice) but allowed humankind to survive through those humans who were obedient to God and not evil and corrupt.

Genesis Chapter 6

'The wickedness of man was great in the earth' (v. 5).
'Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (v. 5).
'The earth was filled with violence' (v. 11).
'The earth...was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth' (v. 12). (All the people on earth had corrupted their way.)

Your task is to argue that it was unjust for God to destroy these evil creatures and only save the faithful and righteous to repopulate the earth.

It is not my task to argue that it was unjust.  My point was that it is unloving to destroy your creation instead of fixing it.  A loving, omnipotent god could and would have cured the disease, rather than killing the patient.

Once you realize that the patient has to choose to be cured, you see the problem.

2

Jenna Black

  • ***
  • 2806 Posts
  • Truth is worth pursuing.
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2016, 10:53:18 am »
You don't seem to be familiar with the reason God Himself gave for destroying those of His creatures who were so totally evil and corrupt that they deserved to be destroyed (justice) but allowed humankind to survive through those humans who were obedient to God and not evil and corrupt.

Genesis Chapter 6

'The wickedness of man was great in the earth' (v. 5).
'Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (v. 5).
'The earth was filled with violence' (v. 11).
'The earth...was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth' (v. 12). (All the people on earth had corrupted their way.)

Your task is to argue that it was unjust for God to destroy these evil creatures and only save the faithful and righteous to repopulate the earth.

It is not my task to argue that it was unjust.  My point was that it is unloving to destroy your creation instead of fixing it.  A loving, omnipotent god could and would have cured the disease, rather than killing the patient.

Once you realize that the patient has to choose to be cured, you see the problem.
Good point, Dogbyte.
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

3

Atheist in Louisiana

  • ***
  • 2631 Posts
  • I ain't afraid of no ghost!
    • View Profile
    • Atheist in Louisiana
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2016, 01:36:40 pm »
You don't seem to be familiar with the reason God Himself gave for destroying those of His creatures who were so totally evil and corrupt that they deserved to be destroyed (justice) but allowed humankind to survive through those humans who were obedient to God and not evil and corrupt.

Genesis Chapter 6

'The wickedness of man was great in the earth' (v. 5).
'Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (v. 5).
'The earth was filled with violence' (v. 11).
'The earth...was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth' (v. 12). (All the people on earth had corrupted their way.)

Your task is to argue that it was unjust for God to destroy these evil creatures and only save the faithful and righteous to repopulate the earth.

It is not my task to argue that it was unjust.  My point was that it is unloving to destroy your creation instead of fixing it.  A loving, omnipotent god could and would have cured the disease, rather than killing the patient.

Once you realize that the patient has to choose to be cured, you see the problem.

Clearly, my analogy was lost on you. 
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

4

Atheist in Louisiana

  • ***
  • 2631 Posts
  • I ain't afraid of no ghost!
    • View Profile
    • Atheist in Louisiana
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2016, 01:37:10 pm »
You don't seem to be familiar with the reason God Himself gave for destroying those of His creatures who were so totally evil and corrupt that they deserved to be destroyed (justice) but allowed humankind to survive through those humans who were obedient to God and not evil and corrupt.

Genesis Chapter 6

'The wickedness of man was great in the earth' (v. 5).
'Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (v. 5).
'The earth was filled with violence' (v. 11).
'The earth...was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth' (v. 12). (All the people on earth had corrupted their way.)

Your task is to argue that it was unjust for God to destroy these evil creatures and only save the faithful and righteous to repopulate the earth.

It is not my task to argue that it was unjust.  My point was that it is unloving to destroy your creation instead of fixing it.  A loving, omnipotent god could and would have cured the disease, rather than killing the patient.

Once you realize that the patient has to choose to be cured, you see the problem.
Good point, Dogbyte.
And also on you.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

5

Jenna Black

  • ***
  • 2806 Posts
  • Truth is worth pursuing.
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2016, 02:02:43 pm »
You don't seem to be familiar with the reason God Himself gave for destroying those of His creatures who were so totally evil and corrupt that they deserved to be destroyed (justice) but allowed humankind to survive through those humans who were obedient to God and not evil and corrupt.

Genesis Chapter 6

'The wickedness of man was great in the earth' (v. 5).
'Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (v. 5).
'The earth was filled with violence' (v. 11).
'The earth...was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth' (v. 12). (All the people on earth had corrupted their way.)

Your task is to argue that it was unjust for God to destroy these evil creatures and only save the faithful and righteous to repopulate the earth.

It is not my task to argue that it was unjust.  My point was that it is unloving to destroy your creation instead of fixing it.  A loving, omnipotent god could and would have cured the disease, rather than killing the patient.

Once you realize that the patient has to choose to be cured, you see the problem.
Good point, Dogbyte.
And also on you.
Is it that your analogy was "lost on us" or that we simply find it unpersuasive? Please consider that the latter is the case.
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

6

Dogbyte

  • **
  • 394 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2016, 02:10:19 pm »
You don't seem to be familiar with the reason God Himself gave for destroying those of His creatures who were so totally evil and corrupt that they deserved to be destroyed (justice) but allowed humankind to survive through those humans who were obedient to God and not evil and corrupt.

Genesis Chapter 6

'The wickedness of man was great in the earth' (v. 5).
'Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (v. 5).
'The earth was filled with violence' (v. 11).
'The earth...was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth' (v. 12). (All the people on earth had corrupted their way.)

Your task is to argue that it was unjust for God to destroy these evil creatures and only save the faithful and righteous to repopulate the earth.

It is not my task to argue that it was unjust.  My point was that it is unloving to destroy your creation instead of fixing it.  A loving, omnipotent god could and would have cured the disease, rather than killing the patient.

Once you realize that the patient has to choose to be cured, you see the problem.

Clearly, my analogy was lost on you.

Well i think i used your analogy to expose the assumption that you have regarding what is considered love with respect to corporal punishment. You can still love the person, but hate the behavior and punish accordingly.

7

Dogbyte

  • **
  • 394 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2016, 02:13:32 pm »
You cant force someone to always choose to do good. The minute you do, you have violated their free will. God didnt stop the antediluvians from choosing evil, or else that would have violated their ability to choose. To stop the behavior of someone that chooses to violate the will of others, is not relevant to the idea of what love is. 

8

Atheist in Louisiana

  • ***
  • 2631 Posts
  • I ain't afraid of no ghost!
    • View Profile
    • Atheist in Louisiana
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2016, 02:36:06 pm »
You cant force someone to always choose to do good. The minute you do, you have violated their free will. God didnt stop the antediluvians from choosing evil, or else that would have violated their ability to choose. To stop the behavior of someone that chooses to violate the will of others, is not relevant to the idea of what love is.

But slaughtering the entirety of the world is.  Well, except for 8 of them.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

9

Jenna Black

  • ***
  • 2806 Posts
  • Truth is worth pursuing.
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2016, 03:01:53 pm »
You cant force someone to always choose to do good. The minute you do, you have violated their free will. God didnt stop the antediluvians from choosing evil, or else that would have violated their ability to choose. To stop the behavior of someone that chooses to violate the will of others, is not relevant to the idea of what love is.

But slaughtering the entirety of the world is.  Well, except for 8 of them.
You have yet to tell us how God was unjust in destroying the totally evil and incorrigibly corrupt antediluvians (great term, BTW, Dogbyte). 
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

10

Dogbyte

  • **
  • 394 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Psychology and Scharp
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2016, 03:03:11 pm »
You cant force someone to always choose to do good. The minute you do, you have violated their free will. God didnt stop the antediluvians from choosing evil, or else that would have violated their ability to choose. To stop the behavior of someone that chooses to violate the will of others, is not relevant to the idea of what love is.

But slaughtering the entirety of the world is.  Well, except for 8 of them.

unless you can argue how the two are mutually exclusive. which is the nexus of how this thread developed. I'll just leave it up to you to make the case for your objection.