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Moral Argument

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Rostos

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For those that doubt OMV's exist
« on: July 25, 2016, 06:28:06 am »
When you make a moral claim, ie, racism is wrong, rape is wrong, murder is wrong, are you making a claim with an intent for it to be a fact?

That is, are you saying something that is indeed factual?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Ivaj

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2016, 03:59:55 am »
No just expressing a preference.
The most fundamental falsehood of theism is the claim that a God exist. It's only because of this falsehood that I am an atheist. It's not because of famous atheists like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. But I do recognize that they did stuff. The existence of theism is because some people believe in God.

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aleph naught

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2016, 10:40:49 am »
No just expressing a preference.

The question really should be: When moral claims are made, i.e., racism is wrong, murder is wrong, what do these claims express?

It's fully possible that while moral claims express factual propositions, Ivaj is an incompetent English speaker and uses moral language to express his own preferences. The non-cognitivist has to give an account of moral language in general, not just of what they are saying when they speak about morality. So the question really is: What are competent English speakers saying when they make moral judgments?

And the answer to that question is clearly not an expression of preference, since it's possible to make moral judgments without expressing a preference. E.g., "There is a right thing to do, but I don't know what it is", "that's the wrong thing to do, but I honestly don't care", etc. That these sorts of statements are coherent, and not conceptually inconsistent, proves that moral judgments are not mere expressions of preference.

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Rostos

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2016, 08:45:07 pm »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

4

Ivaj

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2016, 11:23:22 am »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

That is correct.
The most fundamental falsehood of theism is the claim that a God exist. It's only because of this falsehood that I am an atheist. It's not because of famous atheists like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. But I do recognize that they did stuff. The existence of theism is because some people believe in God.

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aleph naught

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2016, 11:22:07 am »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

And yet, you still make assertions like "torture is wrong"? There's something very inconsistent about that.

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Rostos

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2016, 09:02:57 am »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

That is correct.

Right...and this is how you live your life?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

7

Rostos

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2016, 09:03:36 am »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

And yet, you still make assertions like "torture is wrong"? There's something very inconsistent about that.

What is inconsistent about it?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

8

aleph naught

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2016, 10:42:45 am »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

And yet, you still make assertions like "torture is wrong"? There's something very inconsistent about that.

What is inconsistent about it?

Because unless he can defend non-cognitivism, which he probably can't, that means he is asserting a contradiction.

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hatsoff

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2016, 09:12:36 am »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

That is correct.

Right...and this is how you live your life?

Wait a minute; weren't you describing hypothetical actions that you commit?  Ivaj never said how he would respond.  Presumably he would want to resist your violence, and try to have you punished.

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bruce culver

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2016, 01:57:01 pm »
Yes, those are all factual claims. All of those things are morally wrong by definition.

Furthermore the definition of moral right and wrong is not arbitrary; it is not a matter of personal preference or even group preference; it has been determined by human social evolution.

Broadly across time and cultures the fundamental principle of morality has been defined as the principle of reciprocity. That principle can be formulated in many ways, but it all boils down to the idea that if you want your wellbeing to be respected by others then rationally, you are obliged to respect the wellbeing of others. One formulation of this is the golden rule.

Since no sane person would wish to be raped or murdered or discriminated on because of some superficial characteristic such as race, all of those actions are morally wrong by definition. And that is a fact.
"The world is my country and my religion is to do good."

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Ivaj

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2016, 12:52:23 am »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

That is correct.

Right...and this is how you live your life?

Of course
The most fundamental falsehood of theism is the claim that a God exist. It's only because of this falsehood that I am an atheist. It's not because of famous atheists like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. But I do recognize that they did stuff. The existence of theism is because some people believe in God.

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Hope

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2017, 08:52:41 am »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

Your profile says you've been here 6 years. Is this as far as your understanding of morals has developed?
I'm not trying to be rude, but I find that your question seems woefully tone deaf; as if you are trying to get a different response than an irenic one.

Perhaps we can have a discussion: can you clarify what you mean by "wrong"?

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aleph naught

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 09:30:16 am »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

Your profile says you've been here 6 years. Is this as far as your understanding of morals has developed?
I'm not trying to be rude, but I find that your question seems woefully tone deaf; as if you are trying to get a different response than an irenic one.

Perhaps we can have a discussion: can you clarify what you mean by "wrong"?

That's what he does: ask questions over and over that have been answered hundreds of times before. I don't think I've ever actually seen him have a legitimate discussion with someone.

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Rostos

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Re: For those that doubt OMV's exist
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2017, 08:28:19 pm »
No just expressing a preference.

Right, so if i come into your house, tie you up, rape your partner in front of you, then torture your family in front of you, then finally kill you.......i haven't done anything actually wrong...

Is this correct?

That is correct.

Right...and this is how you live your life?

Wait a minute; weren't you describing hypothetical actions that you commit?  Ivaj never said how he would respond.  Presumably he would want to resist your violence, and try to have you punished.

No, when i said that is how he lives his life i mean that is how he would see it. That is, if this happened in real life, he would deem that i have done nothing wrong.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12