Archived

Ontological Argument

Read 6621 times

Shade

  • *
  • 3 Posts
    • View Profile
Is this reasoning logically valid?
« on: August 18, 2016, 05:01:29 am »
This is my first post here and I'm not a philosopher so please be gentle. I will refer to the Ontological argument as formulated in Dr. Craig's latest video:


    Now, from 1 - "it is possible that a MBG exist" by the very definition / meaning of the word possible, I can write:

1' It is possible that a MBG does not exist.

    then by the same logic between 1 and 2, I can write:

2' There is (at least) a possible world where MGB does not exist.

    therefore

3' A MGB does not exist in all / every possible world.

    so then it follows that

4' A MGB is not maximally great, so it contradicts itself.

    therefore,

5' A MGB cannot exist.

1
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2016, 06:49:16 pm »
The problem is being greater means possessing more or being more of something. If Y is defined as lack of X then the greater being, the more X it has.

SO I think your objection is easily refutable. If you're interested here are my objections against TOA:

It's circular argument. God exists because god exists by definition. Some people try to avoid it by saying "no no, it is not so, we only uses a property of being MGB" But that's the problem, because your definition of MGB includes property of existing in all possible worlds. In other words, people who use TOA simply pretend to derive it from MGB property, even though it's obvious a thing is MGB only if possessing property of existing  in every possible world.

So basically TOA comes down to "God exists, because god by definition exists"

There is another problem namely being MGB is self contradictory. For example god must be maximally wet and maximally hot at the same time. It's impossible. We can't even use the oldest trick and say that god is beyond logic in this case because it would mean god isn't maximally coherent logical structure. Also we clearly see that god isn't MGB for example god isn't maximaly visible, or maximally recognizable, or maximally proven.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 06:50:53 pm by UnreasonableFaith »
You see a grammar or spelling error in my post? Feel free to point it out, I'm still learning.

2

Shade

  • *
  • 3 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2016, 03:01:11 am »
I am not sure that I can follow you here:

Quote
The problem is being greater means possessing more or being more of something. If Y is defined as lack of X then the greater being, the more X it has.

Then, you say:
Quote
SO I think your objection is easily refutable. [...]
Well I thought it was self evident, it's meant to be refutable since it it basically identical to WL Craig's, only Premise 1 was taken the opposite way. I was expecting to be replyied by the proponents of OA, only to see that they had  nothing to say after 2 months and over 50 views.

3
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 07:08:17 am »
Well it's not identical to WL Craig's argument. As I said a very definition of MGB includes the existence in every possible world. So in case of OA you simply define god into existence, whereas your argument has contradiction.

MGB by very definition exists in every possible world, so you can't say it's possible MGB doesn't exist.

If you want a neat rebuttal to OA using itso wn logic here is one:

1. God is a being that which nothing greater can be conceived
2. I can conceive a being greater than Yahweh
3. Therefore Yahweh is no god.

Obviously you can put any god you wish here, obviously it doesn't work against deists.
You see a grammar or spelling error in my post? Feel free to point it out, I'm still learning.

4

Atheist in Louisiana

  • ***
  • 2631 Posts
  • I ain't afraid of no ghost!
    • View Profile
    • Atheist in Louisiana
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2016, 09:44:36 am »
This is my first post here and I'm not a philosopher so please be gentle. I will refer to the Ontological argument as formulated in Dr. Craig's latest video:


    Now, from 1 - "it is possible that a MBG exist" by the very definition / meaning of the word possible, I can write:

1' It is possible that a MBG does not exist.

    then by the same logic between 1 and 2, I can write:

2' There is (at least) a possible world where MGB does not exist.

    therefore

3' A MGB does not exist in all / every possible world.

    so then it follows that

4' A MGB is not maximally great, so it contradicts itself.

    therefore,

5' A MGB cannot exist.

No, it isn't valid.  It conflates possibility with necessity.  There are some people who accept "S5" and those people would argue that it is valid.  I do not accept S5, so I don't accept that kind of reasoning as valid.  It allows for unicorns to exist necessarily and all kinds of other absurdities by simply including defining something as necessary.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

5

ParaclitosLogos

  • ***
  • 4902 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2016, 10:31:28 am »
This is my first post here and I'm not a philosopher so please be gentle. I will refer to the Ontological argument as formulated in Dr. Craig's latest video:


    Now, from 1 - "it is possible that a MBG exist" by the very definition / meaning of the word possible, I can write:

1' It is possible that a MBG does not exist.

    then by the same logic between 1 and 2, I can write:

2' There is (at least) a possible world where MGB does not exist.

    therefore

3' A MGB does not exist in all / every possible world.

    so then it follows that

4' A MGB is not maximally great, so it contradicts itself.

    therefore,

5' A MGB cannot exist.

No, it isn't valid.  It conflates possibility with necessity.  There are some people who accept "S5" and those people would argue that it is valid.  I do not accept S5, so I don't accept that kind of reasoning as valid.  It allows for unicorns to exist necessarily and all kinds of other absurdities by simply including defining something as necessary.

S5 does not allow for unicorns to exist necessarily.

6

ParaclitosLogos

  • ***
  • 4902 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2016, 10:32:33 am »
This is my first post here and I'm not a philosopher so please be gentle. I will refer to the Ontological argument as formulated in Dr. Craig's latest video:


    Now, from 1 - "it is possible that a MBG exist" by the very definition / meaning of the word possible, I can write:

1' It is possible that a MBG does not exist.

    then by the same logic between 1 and 2, I can write:

2' There is (at least) a possible world where MGB does not exist.

    therefore

3' A MGB does not exist in all / every possible world.

    so then it follows that

4' A MGB is not maximally great, so it contradicts itself.

    therefore,

5' A MGB cannot exist.

It´s not strictly formally valid , but, it can be made so.

The little details notwithstanding, yes, your argument is also valid.

Now, all that is needed is to know what is the support for the mains premises.

7

Atheist in Louisiana

  • ***
  • 2631 Posts
  • I ain't afraid of no ghost!
    • View Profile
    • Atheist in Louisiana
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2016, 11:47:35 am »
No, it isn't valid.  It conflates possibility with necessity.  There are some people who accept "S5" and those people would argue that it is valid.  I do not accept S5, so I don't accept that kind of reasoning as valid.  It allows for unicorns to exist necessarily and all kinds of other absurdities by simply including defining something as necessary.

S5 does not allow for unicorns to exist necessarily.

Yes it does.  It allows for anything you define as existing necessarily to exist necessarily, including the MGB and unicorns.  Simply substitute the B of MGB with Unicorns, and MGUnicorns necessarily exist.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

8

ParaclitosLogos

  • ***
  • 4902 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2016, 11:59:07 am »
No, it isn't valid.  It conflates possibility with necessity.  There are some people who accept "S5" and those people would argue that it is valid.  I do not accept S5, so I don't accept that kind of reasoning as valid.  It allows for unicorns to exist necessarily and all kinds of other absurdities by simply including defining something as necessary.

S5 does not allow for unicorns to exist necessarily.

Yes it does.  It allows for anything you define as existing necessarily to exist necessarily, including the MGB and unicorns.  Simply substitute the B of MGB with Unicorns, and MGUnicorns necessarily exist.

S5 is an axiom that establishes that if something is possible then it is not possible that it is not possible.

Unicorns are contingent beings, namely, and as such , no amount of S5 would make it so that a an animal with a contingent animal necessarily exists, if it exists, much less, that it exists necessarily if it is possible, merely for that sole reason, so, simply substituting a MGB for MGU does not do it, not even close.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 12:01:01 pm by ontologicalme »

9

Atheist in Louisiana

  • ***
  • 2631 Posts
  • I ain't afraid of no ghost!
    • View Profile
    • Atheist in Louisiana
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2016, 12:07:32 pm »
No, it isn't valid.  It conflates possibility with necessity.  There are some people who accept "S5" and those people would argue that it is valid.  I do not accept S5, so I don't accept that kind of reasoning as valid.  It allows for unicorns to exist necessarily and all kinds of other absurdities by simply including defining something as necessary.

S5 does not allow for unicorns to exist necessarily.

Yes it does.  It allows for anything you define as existing necessarily to exist necessarily, including the MGB and unicorns.  Simply substitute the B of MGB with Unicorns, and MGUnicorns necessarily exist.

S5 is an axiom that establishes that if something is possible then it is not possible that it is not possible.

Unicorns are contingent beings, namely, and as such , no amount of S5 would make it so that a an animal with a contingent animal necessarily exists, if it exists, much less, that it exists necessarily if it is possible, merely for that sole reason, so, simply substituting a MGB for MGU does not do it, not even close.

You're confused.  A maximally great unicorn isn't contingent because it is greater to not be contingent.

You're talking about a false MGU, a demon!  The MGU isn't contingent upon anything.  (You know this routine.)
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

10

ParaclitosLogos

  • ***
  • 4902 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2016, 12:19:55 pm »
No, it isn't valid.  It conflates possibility with necessity.  There are some people who accept "S5" and those people would argue that it is valid.  I do not accept S5, so I don't accept that kind of reasoning as valid.  It allows for unicorns to exist necessarily and all kinds of other absurdities by simply including defining something as necessary.

S5 does not allow for unicorns to exist necessarily.

Yes it does.  It allows for anything you define as existing necessarily to exist necessarily, including the MGB and unicorns.  Simply substitute the B of MGB with Unicorns, and MGUnicorns necessarily exist.

S5 is an axiom that establishes that if something is possible then it is not possible that it is not possible.

Unicorns are contingent beings, namely, and as such , no amount of S5 would make it so that a an animal with a contingent animal necessarily exists, if it exists, much less, that it exists necessarily if it is possible, merely for that sole reason, so, simply substituting a MGB for MGU does not do it, not even close.

You're confused.  A maximally great unicorn isn't contingent because it is greater to not be contingent.

You're talking about a false MGU, a demon!  The MGU isn't contingent upon anything.  (You know this routine.)

The concept of a unicorn is of a being that can be killed (e.i. to get their valuable horns ) and thus the concept of   a contingent being, Your MGU is just an ad-hoc concept you are making up, just to save your position, which makes it thoroughly implausible.

 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 12:28:23 pm by ontologicalme »

11

Atheist in Louisiana

  • ***
  • 2631 Posts
  • I ain't afraid of no ghost!
    • View Profile
    • Atheist in Louisiana
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2016, 12:36:53 pm »
No, it isn't valid.  It conflates possibility with necessity.  There are some people who accept "S5" and those people would argue that it is valid.  I do not accept S5, so I don't accept that kind of reasoning as valid.  It allows for unicorns to exist necessarily and all kinds of other absurdities by simply including defining something as necessary.

S5 does not allow for unicorns to exist necessarily.

Yes it does.  It allows for anything you define as existing necessarily to exist necessarily, including the MGB and unicorns.  Simply substitute the B of MGB with Unicorns, and MGUnicorns necessarily exist.

S5 is an axiom that establishes that if something is possible then it is not possible that it is not possible.

Unicorns are contingent beings, namely, and as such , no amount of S5 would make it so that a an animal with a contingent animal necessarily exists, if it exists, much less, that it exists necessarily if it is possible, merely for that sole reason, so, simply substituting a MGB for MGU does not do it, not even close.

You're confused.  A maximally great unicorn isn't contingent because it is greater to not be contingent.

You're talking about a false MGU, a demon!  The MGU isn't contingent upon anything.  (You know this routine.)

The concept of a unicorn is of a being that can be killed (e.i. to get their valuable horns ) and thus the concept of   a contingent being, Your MGU is just an ad-hoc concept you are making up, just to save your position, which makes it thoroughly implausible.

No, the MGU can't be killed.  It's insane to think that it can.  Normal unicorns can't even be killed.  You've never killed one nor have you even heard stories of someone who has.  Don't be silly.

And yes, the MGU is ad-hoc, just like the MGB.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

12

ParaclitosLogos

  • ***
  • 4902 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2016, 12:43:14 pm »
No, it isn't valid.  It conflates possibility with necessity.  There are some people who accept "S5" and those people would argue that it is valid.  I do not accept S5, so I don't accept that kind of reasoning as valid.  It allows for unicorns to exist necessarily and all kinds of other absurdities by simply including defining something as necessary.

S5 does not allow for unicorns to exist necessarily.

Yes it does.  It allows for anything you define as existing necessarily to exist necessarily, including the MGB and unicorns.  Simply substitute the B of MGB with Unicorns, and MGUnicorns necessarily exist.

S5 is an axiom that establishes that if something is possible then it is not possible that it is not possible.

Unicorns are contingent beings, namely, and as such , no amount of S5 would make it so that a an animal with a contingent animal necessarily exists, if it exists, much less, that it exists necessarily if it is possible, merely for that sole reason, so, simply substituting a MGB for MGU does not do it, not even close.

You're confused.  A maximally great unicorn isn't contingent because it is greater to not be contingent.

You're talking about a false MGU, a demon!  The MGU isn't contingent upon anything.  (You know this routine.)

The concept of a unicorn is of a being that can be killed (e.i. to get their valuable horns ) and thus the concept of   a contingent being, Your MGU is just an ad-hoc concept you are making up, just to save your position, which makes it thoroughly implausible.

No, the MGU can't be killed.  It's insane to think that it can.  Normal unicorns can't even be killed.  You've never killed one nor have you even heard stories of someone who has.  Don't be silly.

And yes, the MGU is ad-hoc, just like the MGB.

Ok, good, you admit the MGU is ad-hoc, which indeed is.


A MGB is not, and ad-hoc concept, it is argued for , being rooted in Chrisitan theology , that has been developed for milenia, and, it is also argued for that it must be necessarily existing, by Plantinga. So there, the MOA remains unchallenged.

And you were incorrect about S5.


Thanks for the exchange.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 12:45:02 pm by ontologicalme »

13

Atheist in Louisiana

  • ***
  • 2631 Posts
  • I ain't afraid of no ghost!
    • View Profile
    • Atheist in Louisiana
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2016, 02:02:27 pm »
No, it isn't valid.  It conflates possibility with necessity.  There are some people who accept "S5" and those people would argue that it is valid.  I do not accept S5, so I don't accept that kind of reasoning as valid.  It allows for unicorns to exist necessarily and all kinds of other absurdities by simply including defining something as necessary.

S5 does not allow for unicorns to exist necessarily.

Yes it does.  It allows for anything you define as existing necessarily to exist necessarily, including the MGB and unicorns.  Simply substitute the B of MGB with Unicorns, and MGUnicorns necessarily exist.

S5 is an axiom that establishes that if something is possible then it is not possible that it is not possible.

Unicorns are contingent beings, namely, and as such , no amount of S5 would make it so that a an animal with a contingent animal necessarily exists, if it exists, much less, that it exists necessarily if it is possible, merely for that sole reason, so, simply substituting a MGB for MGU does not do it, not even close.

You're confused.  A maximally great unicorn isn't contingent because it is greater to not be contingent.

You're talking about a false MGU, a demon!  The MGU isn't contingent upon anything.  (You know this routine.)

The concept of a unicorn is of a being that can be killed (e.i. to get their valuable horns ) and thus the concept of   a contingent being, Your MGU is just an ad-hoc concept you are making up, just to save your position, which makes it thoroughly implausible.

No, the MGU can't be killed.  It's insane to think that it can.  Normal unicorns can't even be killed.  You've never killed one nor have you even heard stories of someone who has.  Don't be silly.

And yes, the MGU is ad-hoc, just like the MGB.

Ok, good, you admit the MGU is ad-hoc, which indeed is.


A MGB is not, and ad-hoc concept, it is argued for , being rooted in Chrisitan theology , that has been developed for milenia, and, it is also argued for that it must be necessarily existing, by Plantinga. So there, the MOA remains unchallenged.

And you were incorrect about S5.


Thanks for the exchange.

Just because Plantinga argued something doesn't make it true.  Thank you for the exchange as well.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

14

Shade

  • *
  • 3 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Is this reasoning logically valid?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2016, 03:09:43 pm »

It´s not strictly formally valid , but, it can be made so.
The little details notwithstanding, yes, your argument is also valid.
Now, all that is needed is to know what is the support for the mains premises.

I agree the formalism may be improved.

I truly hope everybody understands my point. I do not want to make a valid argument against God, nor to find a specific weakness in WLC's argument. I wanted however to prove it wrong, so I built my 1'...5' argument. If somebody considers sound WLC's Ontological argument, they must consider my argument also to be sound, since if follows exactly the same line of reasoning. Therefore, the reasoning can't be sound.