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12thMonkey

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Athiests-- Why are you here?
« on: August 29, 2016, 10:23:26 pm »
And I don't mean this as an attack, but as a serious question.

I'm absolutely perplexed by the amount of time and number of posts many of the atheists devote to this Christian philosophy website.  I see many atheist posters with post counts in the multiple thousands, commenting on virtually every thread, often dwarfing the post counts of their theist counterparts. 

Furthermore, the atheist posters are found to be frequently complaining about the quality of the board, the quality of the theist posters, and the intellectual vacuousness of the founder of the forums. 

Can someone explain this mentality to me?  I don't like Harry Potter, so I don't frequent Harry Potter forums.  I don't like the New York Knicks, so I don't find myself on New York Knicks forums.  I don't go onto Twilight forums and belittle the readers, or put down the author.  On occasion I will go on a Buddhist forum, or a Hindu forum, I'll read some topics, possibly ask a question, maybe respond, and then I leave. 

I don't understand the thought process involved in being a constant forum presence while continuing to attack every aspect of the board, and I can't be the only one that notices that the most vocal atheist posters also seem to be the most unhappy with their fellow posters, the topics, Christian philosophy, and Craig himself. 

I would assume that if you have multiple thousands of posts, you enjoy the board, other posters, some of the topics, and have at least some mild respect for Craig.  But I just don't get that sense here. 

Am I wrong?  What am I missing? 

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lucious

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 10:27:59 pm »
I don't think you're wrong and see this mentality as well.


I was questioning this yesterday myself--where I was outnumbered approx 10 to 1 by atheists, put on the defensive over what would otherwise, in any other context, be a non-controversial and sensible principle. I was singled out for being "unreasonable".

I thought--hang on, this is reasonable faith, right? I've only seen this level of antagonism towards Christians on atheist sites.

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Atheist in Louisiana

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2016, 11:09:15 pm »
And I don't mean this as an attack, but as a serious question.

OK, I'll treat it seriously.

Quote
I'm absolutely perplexed by the amount of time and number of posts many of the atheists devote to this Christian philosophy website.  I see many atheist posters with post counts in the multiple thousands, commenting on virtually every thread, often dwarfing the post counts of their theist counterparts.

If there were no atheists, this forum would be full of theists all telling each other about how their faith is reasonable.  I suppose that may sound fun to some people.  I find echo chambers to be miserable places.  You need people with different views on a forum.  Otherwise, you'll run out of topics to talk about.

Quote
Furthermore, the atheist posters are found to be frequently complaining about the quality of the board, the quality of the theist posters, and the intellectual vacuousness of the founder of the forums.

That's odd.  I've noticed that the atheist posters on this board do very little complaining, and only address WLC when a theist brings him up.  Same thing with Richard Dawkins.  The theists bring him up, not the atheists.

Quote
Can someone explain this mentality to me?  I don't like Harry Potter, so I don't frequent Harry Potter forums.  I don't like the New York Knicks, so I don't find myself on New York Knicks forums.  I don't go onto Twilight forums and belittle the readers, or put down the author.  On occasion I will go on a Buddhist forum, or a Hindu forum, I'll read some topics, possibly ask a question, maybe respond, and then I leave.

I think I can explain things to you, so I'm going to try.  Harry Potter is a cool book.  Well a few cool books, but I can understand that you don't like them.  That's OK.  I wonder what you would do if 80% of the population all thought Voldemort was real, and that Dumbledore was infallible and the author of morality.  What if that 80% of the population tried to force you to accept Dumbledore's morality and said that you were the minion of Voldemort and were going to burn in a lake of fire for all of eternity if you don't believe in Dumbledore's infallible perfection?  Would you just dismiss them as being insane?  Or would you do like the atheists here on this forum do, and actually try to engage with them see if there really is something to those beliefs?  What would you do if they told you that the belief in Dumbledore's infallible perfection is something that everyone knows about, and to question it is to abandon all intellectual honesty because such beliefs are properly basic?

You see, of the atheists that dislike religion, they don't dislike religion in the same way that you dislike the New York Knicks.  Comparing an atheist's views of religion to someone who doesn't like the Knicks is an exceedingly poor analogy.  Try just asking us what we think about something.  We'll be happy to tell you.

Quote
I don't understand the thought process involved in being a constant forum presence while continuing to attack every aspect of the board, and I can't be the only one that notices that the most vocal atheist posters also seem to be the most unhappy with their fellow posters, the topics, Christian philosophy, and Craig himself.

There are a few atheist posters who are unhappy with Keith_ and Lucious right now.  That's really all I can think of.  The other fellow posters are fine.  We think they are wrong about the whole god thing, but we're happy to talk to them.  Keith_ and Lucious are pretty gritty.  (I should give Keith_ some credit.  His posting most recently has become more friendly and less offensive.  It's not where I'd like it to be, but it's getting better.  As they say, credit where credit is due.)

I don't recall atheists complaining about the topics.  Unless you mean us objecting to the onslaught of Keith's posts about "New Atheism", and Lucious's insults directed at anyone who has the nerve to disagree with him.  We usually bring something up when we want to talk about it.

Atheists aren't unhappy with Christian philosophy.  We don't agree with it, but we aren't unhappy with it.  Craig himself is a different story.  We have plenty of respect for Craig.  We don't respect his arguments, and are happy to show where he is wrong, and explain why he is wrong, but we don't have anything against the man himself.

Quote
I would assume that if you have multiple thousands of posts, you enjoy the board, other posters, some of the topics, and have at least some mild respect for Craig.  But I just don't get that sense here. 

Am I wrong?  What am I missing? 

We do have respect for Craig.  We just don't think he is right and are happy to show why.  Having respect for someone and agreeing to everything they say are not the same thing.
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lucious

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2016, 11:17:33 pm »
Ail, it is absurd to suggest I'm merely insulting anyone who disagrees with me.

This is the victim card mentality--what I'm doing is confronting dis ingenuity and dialectical legerdemain. Although I'm prepared to give the benefit of the doubt and assume it's not that sleazy, but rather, some of these tropes and routine forum-epigrams have just been so deeply impacted into peoples cognitive muscle memory, that the extraction process will inevitably result in wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The only reason you could have for being upset with me, is if you need the forum to be dysfunctional or a troll-haunt for whatever reason.

I stand up for intellectually honesty, fairness, and integrity. I've developed a refined skillset and prying apart things with a philosophical fine tooth comb and injecting large amounts of nuance and subtlety.

The only people I butt heads with are those who are self-proclaimed immutable skeptics who assume the role of the omniscient voyeur with a philosophical view from nowhere, who have an annoying tendency to vaporize into mist when confronted, questioned or exposed. I don't think this is any coincidence.

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Rostos

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2016, 11:37:59 pm »
When you think about it, its pretty absurd.

If you are an atheist, then you believe this is the only life you have and therefore makes every second extremely precious. Why would you waste those precious seconds arguing against people about a being you dont believe exists.

I could understand someone coming here with an open mind and seeing "whats out there", but if you are still unconvinced, it seriously doesnt make sense to keep coming back.

"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
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12thMonkey

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2016, 11:39:25 pm »
And I don't mean this as an attack, but as a serious question.

OK, I'll treat it seriously.

Quote
I'm absolutely perplexed by the amount of time and number of posts many of the atheists devote to this Christian philosophy website.  I see many atheist posters with post counts in the multiple thousands, commenting on virtually every thread, often dwarfing the post counts of their theist counterparts.

If there were no atheists, this forum would be full of theists all telling each other about how their faith is reasonable.  I suppose that may sound fun to some people.  I find echo chambers to be miserable places.  You need people with different views on a forum.  Otherwise, you'll run out of topics to talk about.

Quote
Furthermore, the atheist posters are found to be frequently complaining about the quality of the board, the quality of the theist posters, and the intellectual vacuousness of the founder of the forums.

That's odd.  I've noticed that the atheist posters on this board do very little complaining, and only address WLC when a theist brings him up.  Same thing with Richard Dawkins.  The theists bring him up, not the atheists.

Quote
Can someone explain this mentality to me?  I don't like Harry Potter, so I don't frequent Harry Potter forums.  I don't like the New York Knicks, so I don't find myself on New York Knicks forums.  I don't go onto Twilight forums and belittle the readers, or put down the author.  On occasion I will go on a Buddhist forum, or a Hindu forum, I'll read some topics, possibly ask a question, maybe respond, and then I leave.

I think I can explain things to you, so I'm going to try.  Harry Potter is a cool book.  Well a few cool books, but I can understand that you don't like them.  That's OK.  I wonder what you would do if 80% of the population all thought Voldemort was real, and that Dumbledore was infallible and the author of morality.  What if that 80% of the population tried to force you to accept Dumbledore's morality and said that you were the minion of Voldemort and were going to burn in a lake of fire for all of eternity if you don't believe in Dumbledore's infallible perfection?  Would you just dismiss them as being insane?  Or would you do like the atheists here on this forum do, and actually try to engage with them see if there really is something to those beliefs?  What would you do if they told you that the belief in Dumbledore's infallible perfection is something that everyone knows about, and to question it is to abandon all intellectual honesty because such beliefs are properly basic?

You see, of the atheists that dislike religion, they don't dislike religion in the same way that you dislike the New York Knicks.  Comparing an atheist's views of religion to someone who doesn't like the Knicks is an exceedingly poor analogy.  Try just asking us what we think about something.  We'll be happy to tell you.

Quote
I don't understand the thought process involved in being a constant forum presence while continuing to attack every aspect of the board, and I can't be the only one that notices that the most vocal atheist posters also seem to be the most unhappy with their fellow posters, the topics, Christian philosophy, and Craig himself.

There are a few atheist posters who are unhappy with Keith_ and Lucious right now.  That's really all I can think of.  The other fellow posters are fine.  We think they are wrong about the whole god thing, but we're happy to talk to them.  Keith_ and Lucious are pretty gritty.  (I should give Keith_ some credit.  His posting most recently has become more friendly and less offensive.  It's not where I'd like it to be, but it's getting better.  As they say, credit where credit is due.)

I don't recall atheists complaining about the topics.  Unless you mean us objecting to the onslaught of Keith's posts about "New Atheism", and Lucious's insults directed at anyone who has the nerve to disagree with him.  We usually bring something up when we want to talk about it.

Atheists aren't unhappy with Christian philosophy.  We don't agree with it, but we aren't unhappy with it.  Craig himself is a different story.  We have plenty of respect for Craig.  We don't respect his arguments, and are happy to show where he is wrong, and explain why he is wrong, but we don't have anything against the man himself.

Quote
I would assume that if you have multiple thousands of posts, you enjoy the board, other posters, some of the topics, and have at least some mild respect for Craig.  But I just don't get that sense here. 

Am I wrong?  What am I missing? 

We do have respect for Craig.  We just don't think he is right and are happy to show why.  Having respect for someone and agreeing to everything they say are not the same thing.

Well, I never suggested all atheists should leave.  The reason I pop in occasionally is to see the give and take between some of the ideas on this forum.  I'm specifically questioning the ones who seem to maintain this as a second job, and yet have little good to say regarding their interaction with the topics, other posters, or Craig.

"You see, of the atheists that dislike religion, they don't dislike religion in the same way that you dislike the New York Knicks."

I think this quote is enormously interesting, and pretty much what I had guessed.  There certainly seems to be a strong motivation to fight the good fight against the delusional religious folk who are trying to spread this anti-intellectual disease among the masses, like thinking Voldemort was real, or something. 

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Rostos

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2016, 11:41:22 pm »
"You see, of the atheists that dislike religion, they don't dislike religion in the same way that you dislike the New York Knicks."

This is because the Knicks dont threaten your moral lifestyle or appeal to your conscience like religion does.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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lucious

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2016, 11:43:08 pm »
I've made the point that dislike of religion is a sociocultural issue. The comparison to the Knicks is illicit since that is one of psychological preference--but we're not here for that.

This is better taken to the public arena where you actively combat abuse of rights, bigotry, injustice and intolerance. And that's a fight I'll agree with.

This is a forum for discussing the truth of worldviews. You should only be here to get at the truth of an issue, not to vent your misgivings with institutionalized religion.

I'll also make the point that to act as if religion is a malignant force with secularism as the answer is grossly misconceived and one-sided.

There is much to secularism and atheism which pollutes the culture just as much, if not worse than, religious belief.

Salient examples include gay marriage, legalization of abortion, bizarre distortions of the self. These are just as malodorous as any issue publicized religion brings about.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 11:46:20 pm by lucious »

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phidiasv

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2016, 11:46:28 pm »
And I don't mean this as an attack, but as a serious question.

I'm absolutely perplexed by the amount of time and number of posts many of the atheists devote to this Christian philosophy website.  I see many atheist posters with post counts in the multiple thousands, commenting on virtually every thread, often dwarfing the post counts of their theist counterparts. 

Furthermore, the atheist posters are found to be frequently complaining about the quality of the board, the quality of the theist posters, and the intellectual vacuousness of the founder of the forums. 

Can someone explain this mentality to me?  I don't like Harry Potter, so I don't frequent Harry Potter forums.  I don't like the New York Knicks, so I don't find myself on New York Knicks forums.  I don't go onto Twilight forums and belittle the readers, or put down the author.  On occasion I will go on a Buddhist forum, or a Hindu forum, I'll read some topics, possibly ask a question, maybe respond, and then I leave. 

I don't understand the thought process involved in being a constant forum presence while continuing to attack every aspect of the board, and I can't be the only one that notices that the most vocal atheist posters also seem to be the most unhappy with their fellow posters, the topics, Christian philosophy, and Craig himself. 

I would assume that if you have multiple thousands of posts, you enjoy the board, other posters, some of the topics, and have at least some mild respect for Craig.  But I just don't get that sense here. 

Am I wrong?  What am I missing?

I suppose I rather enjoy philosophy of religion. And this forum has some discussion on that topic. Nothing too complicated.

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Rostos

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2016, 11:48:05 pm »
I've made the point that dislike of religion is a sociocultural issue. The comparison to the Knicks is illicit since that is one of psychological preference--but we're not here for that.

This is better taken to the public arena where you actively combat abuse of rights, bigotry, injustice and intolerance. And that's a fight I'll agree with.

This is a forum for discussing the truth of worldviews. You should only be here to get at the truth of an issue, not to vent your misgivings with institutionalized religion.

I'll also make the point that to act as if religion is a malignant force with secularism as the answer is grossly misconceived and one-sided.

There is much to secularism and atheism which pollutes the culture just as much, if not worse than, religious belief.

Salient examples include gay marriage, legalization of abortion, bizarre distortions of the self. These are just as malodorous as any issue publicized religion brings about.

Yep, threat to your moral conscience.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Asherah-deceased

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2016, 11:49:20 pm »
I hear to learn something, and I hop to help others learn something.  We learn much more by engaging with those we disagree with. 

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12thMonkey

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2016, 11:51:45 pm »
I hear to learn something, and I hop to help others learn something.  We learn much more by engaging with those we disagree with.

What have you learned in your time here?  Serious question. 

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Atheist in Louisiana

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2016, 11:56:55 pm »
Ail, it is absurd to suggest I'm merely insulting anyone who disagrees with me.

You sure?  Because I disagreed with you.  I bet you've got some thinly veiled insults in this post.  Let's look at that.

Quote
This is the victim card mentality

You accuse me of playing "the victim card".

Quote
--what I'm doing is confronting dis ingenuity

And now you accuse me of being disingenuous.

Quote
I'm prepared to give the benefit of the doubt and assume it's not that sleazy,

Oh, now you aren't sure if I'm being sleazy or not, but you'll give me the benefit of the doubt.  Thinly veiled, as I expected.

Quote
but rather, some of these tropes and routine forum-epigrams have just been so deeply impacted into peoples cognitive muscle memory, that the extraction process will inevitably result in wailing and gnashing of teeth.

"Wailing and gnashing of teeth"...  Where have I heard that before?  Oh yea, it's a description of Hell.  Now I'm being compared to someone in Hell.

Quote
The only reason you could have for being upset with me, is if you need the forum to be dysfunctional or a troll-haunt for whatever reason.

Did you ever maybe, think that I might be upset with you because you compare me to people in Hell, call me sleazy and disingenuous, and accuse me of playing the victim card, rather than actually engage with me?  No, you probably never thought of that. 

Quote
I stand up for intellectually honesty, fairness, and integrity. I've developed a refined skillset and prying apart things with a philosophical fine tooth comb and injecting large amounts of nuance and subtlety.

And yet you don't understand the burden of proof.  It's truly impressive that you stand up for those things.   I try to sit down when posting on internet forums.  Oh did you mean that you stand for those things?  Yea, that's still impressive because someone who would stand for those things, wouldn't be anywhere near as insulting as you.

Quote
The only people I butt heads with are those who are self-proclaimed immutable skeptics who assume the role of the omniscient voyeur with a philosophical view from nowhere, who have an annoying tendency to vaporize into mist when confronted, questioned or exposed. I don't think this is any coincidence.

You butt heads with me, and yet I'm not a self-proclaimed immutable skeptic.  I like how you follow that up with more thinly veiled insults, like assuming the role of an omniscient voyeur, having a philosophical view from nowhere, having annoying tendencies, vaporizing into mist when confronted, questioned, or exposed. 

For someone who doesn't like rhetoric, you sure do have a lot of it.  Maybe that's why you don't like it.  You already have too much of it.  That must be it.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
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Atheist in Louisiana

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2016, 12:04:01 am »
And I don't mean this as an attack, but as a serious question.

OK, I'll treat it seriously.

Quote
I'm absolutely perplexed by the amount of time and number of posts many of the atheists devote to this Christian philosophy website.  I see many atheist posters with post counts in the multiple thousands, commenting on virtually every thread, often dwarfing the post counts of their theist counterparts.

If there were no atheists, this forum would be full of theists all telling each other about how their faith is reasonable.  I suppose that may sound fun to some people.  I find echo chambers to be miserable places.  You need people with different views on a forum.  Otherwise, you'll run out of topics to talk about.

Quote
Furthermore, the atheist posters are found to be frequently complaining about the quality of the board, the quality of the theist posters, and the intellectual vacuousness of the founder of the forums.

That's odd.  I've noticed that the atheist posters on this board do very little complaining, and only address WLC when a theist brings him up.  Same thing with Richard Dawkins.  The theists bring him up, not the atheists.

Quote
Can someone explain this mentality to me?  I don't like Harry Potter, so I don't frequent Harry Potter forums.  I don't like the New York Knicks, so I don't find myself on New York Knicks forums.  I don't go onto Twilight forums and belittle the readers, or put down the author.  On occasion I will go on a Buddhist forum, or a Hindu forum, I'll read some topics, possibly ask a question, maybe respond, and then I leave.

I think I can explain things to you, so I'm going to try.  Harry Potter is a cool book.  Well a few cool books, but I can understand that you don't like them.  That's OK.  I wonder what you would do if 80% of the population all thought Voldemort was real, and that Dumbledore was infallible and the author of morality.  What if that 80% of the population tried to force you to accept Dumbledore's morality and said that you were the minion of Voldemort and were going to burn in a lake of fire for all of eternity if you don't believe in Dumbledore's infallible perfection?  Would you just dismiss them as being insane?  Or would you do like the atheists here on this forum do, and actually try to engage with them see if there really is something to those beliefs?  What would you do if they told you that the belief in Dumbledore's infallible perfection is something that everyone knows about, and to question it is to abandon all intellectual honesty because such beliefs are properly basic?

You see, of the atheists that dislike religion, they don't dislike religion in the same way that you dislike the New York Knicks.  Comparing an atheist's views of religion to someone who doesn't like the Knicks is an exceedingly poor analogy.  Try just asking us what we think about something.  We'll be happy to tell you.

Quote
I don't understand the thought process involved in being a constant forum presence while continuing to attack every aspect of the board, and I can't be the only one that notices that the most vocal atheist posters also seem to be the most unhappy with their fellow posters, the topics, Christian philosophy, and Craig himself.

There are a few atheist posters who are unhappy with Keith_ and Lucious right now.  That's really all I can think of.  The other fellow posters are fine.  We think they are wrong about the whole god thing, but we're happy to talk to them.  Keith_ and Lucious are pretty gritty.  (I should give Keith_ some credit.  His posting most recently has become more friendly and less offensive.  It's not where I'd like it to be, but it's getting better.  As they say, credit where credit is due.)

I don't recall atheists complaining about the topics.  Unless you mean us objecting to the onslaught of Keith's posts about "New Atheism", and Lucious's insults directed at anyone who has the nerve to disagree with him.  We usually bring something up when we want to talk about it.

Atheists aren't unhappy with Christian philosophy.  We don't agree with it, but we aren't unhappy with it.  Craig himself is a different story.  We have plenty of respect for Craig.  We don't respect his arguments, and are happy to show where he is wrong, and explain why he is wrong, but we don't have anything against the man himself.

Quote
I would assume that if you have multiple thousands of posts, you enjoy the board, other posters, some of the topics, and have at least some mild respect for Craig.  But I just don't get that sense here. 

Am I wrong?  What am I missing? 

We do have respect for Craig.  We just don't think he is right and are happy to show why.  Having respect for someone and agreeing to everything they say are not the same thing.

Well, I never suggested all atheists should leave.  The reason I pop in occasionally is to see the give and take between some of the ideas on this forum.  I'm specifically questioning the ones who seem to maintain this as a second job, and yet have little good to say regarding their interaction with the topics, other posters, or Craig.

"You see, of the atheists that dislike religion, they don't dislike religion in the same way that you dislike the New York Knicks."

I think this quote is enormously interesting, and pretty much what I had guessed.  There certainly seems to be a strong motivation to fight the good fight against the delusional religious folk who are trying to spread this anti-intellectual disease among the masses, like thinking Voldemort was real, or something.

Except that the atheists have figured out that Voldemort isn't real, so we're not scared of him.  We're not fighting Voldemort, we're trying to point out to those claiming to be disciples of Dumbledore that neither Voldemort or Dumbledore have evidence that they exist.  We're asking them why they think Dumbledore exists.
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

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lucious

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Re: Athiests-- Why are you here?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2016, 12:07:23 am »
Ail, it's actually you not understanding the burden of proof. You throw it like a hot potato. Its one tactic that devolves discussion like nothing else.

More victim carding as well. Is that violin music I hear?