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Moral Argument

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2016, 06:25:00 pm »
So Lions dont kill cubs in the Wild?

As i said we see Lions kill for cubs all the time and not for food.

Are they doing anything wrong? Do they have a duty not to kill cubs?

Under atheism, humans are just animals...Why is wrong for a human to kill a baby? But not wrong for a Lion to kill a cub?

You cant have it both ways

Rostos, my dear friend, wherefore must you ask the same questions to me when you're clearly not interested in the answer? 

Yea, lions kill cubs under certain conditions.  Lion morality isn't the same as human morality.  It may or may not be immoral.  Go ask a lion.

Stop talking about "under atheism".  You don't understand it well enough to come up with decent questions for it.  You're making yourself look foolish and should stop.

So you admit Lions kill cubs for reasons other than for survival, ie, to feed on.

Why is not wrong for a lion to kill a cub but it is wrong for a human to kill a baby?

Why the difference? After all, in the absence of God, we are all just animals, humans are nothing more than animals with more complex nervous systems.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2016, 06:33:20 pm »
So Lions dont kill cubs in the Wild?

As i said we see Lions kill for cubs all the time and not for food.

Are they doing anything wrong? Do they have a duty not to kill cubs?

Under atheism, humans are just animals...Why is wrong for a human to kill a baby? But not wrong for a Lion to kill a cub?

You cant have it both ways

Under theism humans aren't just animals, so then why are babies not held responsible for their actions? You can't have it both ways.

What? That doesnt even make sense.

Yeah, because I'm parodying you. But haven't you noticed that babies, like the other animals, are not capable of doing right or wrong? So maybe the reason that the other animals cannot do wrong is the same reason that the other animals cannot do wrong? Can you think of any such reasons?

Your parody doesnt even hit the mark. What does babies doing things themselves have anything to do with my examples? absolutely NOTHING.

My example was simple. We see Lions KILL cubs all the time in the animal kingdom to not feed off them. Why is it wrong not wrong for these lions to kill cubs but it is wrong for humans to kill babies?

We see apes kill their neighbour's not to obviously eat but what appears to claim land/territory. Is it wrong for apes to do such a thing? If its not wrong for them, why is it wrong if i killed you to claim your land?

In the absence of God, humans are nothing more than evolved apes. Where did this OBJECTIVE obligation MAGICALLY appear where rules and obligations get imposed on humans that dont occur in any other animals?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2016, 06:38:46 pm »
Why dont we have humans patrolling the wild "policing" what goes on the wild?

Why arent there police/law enforcement watching over ducks when they gang pack rape another duck? Is it because its not wrong for them? if its not not wrong for them, how did it all of a sudden become wrong for humans?

Why arent there police/law enforcement watching over apes when they kill there neighbours for land/territory? Is it because its not wrong for them? if its not not wrong for them, how did it all of a sudden become wrong for humans?

Why arent there police/law enforcement watching over dolphins when the strong male dolphins get together and pick on and kill young vulnerable dolphins for reasons other than to east? Is it because its not wrong for them? if its not not wrong for them, how did it all of a sudden become wrong for humans to pick on and kill young people?

In the absence of God, we are no different to any other animal, just more complex nervous systems, where did this objective obligation and rules come from that are non existent in other animals all of a sudden become binding on humans?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2016, 06:45:06 pm »
Your parody doesnt even hit the mark. What does babies doing things themselves have anything to do with my examples? absolutely NOTHING.

My example was simple. We see Lions KILL cubs all the time in the animal kingdom to not feed off them. Why is it wrong not wrong for these lions to kill cubs but it is wrong for humans to kill babies?

For the same reason that human babies are not capable of wrongdoing. You ever think of that?

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2016, 06:47:42 pm »
Your parody doesnt even hit the mark. What does babies doing things themselves have anything to do with my examples? absolutely NOTHING.

My example was simple. We see Lions KILL cubs all the time in the animal kingdom to not feed off them. Why is it wrong not wrong for these lions to kill cubs but it is wrong for humans to kill babies?

For the same reason that human babies are not capable of wrongdoing. You ever think of that?

I am still wondering how babies being able to do or not do wrong has any bearing to what i am arguing.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2016, 07:25:14 pm »
Your parody doesnt even hit the mark. What does babies doing things themselves have anything to do with my examples? absolutely NOTHING.

My example was simple. We see Lions KILL cubs all the time in the animal kingdom to not feed off them. Why is it wrong not wrong for these lions to kill cubs but it is wrong for humans to kill babies?

For the same reason that human babies are not capable of wrongdoing. You ever think of that?

I am still wondering how babies being able to do or not do wrong has any bearing to what i am arguing.

You asked why lions are not capable of doing wrong, even while humans are. I answered your question: Lions are not capable of doing wrong for the same reason that babies are not capable of doing wrong.

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2016, 07:41:56 pm »
Your parody doesnt even hit the mark. What does babies doing things themselves have anything to do with my examples? absolutely NOTHING.

My example was simple. We see Lions KILL cubs all the time in the animal kingdom to not feed off them. Why is it wrong not wrong for these lions to kill cubs but it is wrong for humans to kill babies?

For the same reason that human babies are not capable of wrongdoing. You ever think of that?

I am still wondering how babies being able to do or not do wrong has any bearing to what i am arguing.

You asked why lions are not capable of doing wrong, even while humans are. I answered your question: Lions are not capable of doing wrong for the same reason that babies are not capable of doing wrong.

No...you read it wrong. I asked is it wrong what Lions are doing? That is, do humans label lions actions of killing cubs as wrong.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2016, 08:35:53 pm »
Your parody doesnt even hit the mark. What does babies doing things themselves have anything to do with my examples? absolutely NOTHING.

My example was simple. We see Lions KILL cubs all the time in the animal kingdom to not feed off them. Why is it wrong not wrong for these lions to kill cubs but it is wrong for humans to kill babies?

For the same reason that human babies are not capable of wrongdoing. You ever think of that?

I am still wondering how babies being able to do or not do wrong has any bearing to what i am arguing.

You asked why lions are not capable of doing wrong, even while humans are. I answered your question: Lions are not capable of doing wrong for the same reason that babies are not capable of doing wrong.

No...you read it wrong. I asked is it wrong what Lions are doing? That is, do humans label lions actions of killing cubs as wrong.

It's not wrong, lions aren't capable of doing wrong. Human adults are (probably) the only animals that are capable of wrongdoing.

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2016, 08:46:22 pm »
Your parody doesnt even hit the mark. What does babies doing things themselves have anything to do with my examples? absolutely NOTHING.

My example was simple. We see Lions KILL cubs all the time in the animal kingdom to not feed off them. Why is it wrong not wrong for these lions to kill cubs but it is wrong for humans to kill babies?

For the same reason that human babies are not capable of wrongdoing. You ever think of that?

I am still wondering how babies being able to do or not do wrong has any bearing to what i am arguing.

You asked why lions are not capable of doing wrong, even while humans are. I answered your question: Lions are not capable of doing wrong for the same reason that babies are not capable of doing wrong.

No...you read it wrong. I asked is it wrong what Lions are doing? That is, do humans label lions actions of killing cubs as wrong.

It's not wrong, lions aren't capable of doing wrong. Human adults are (probably) the only animals that are capable of wrongdoing.

Wrong according to what/who?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2016, 09:00:23 pm »
Quote
It's not wrong, lions aren't capable of doing wrong. Human adults are (probably) the only animals that are capable of wrongdoing.

Wrong according to what/who?

Nothing and no one, since I'm not a subjectivist like you.

Can I take this irrelevant question to mean that you now understand that your argument is invalid?

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Atheist in Louisiana

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2016, 09:20:54 pm »
So Lions dont kill cubs in the Wild?

As i said we see Lions kill for cubs all the time and not for food.

Are they doing anything wrong? Do they have a duty not to kill cubs?

Under atheism, humans are just animals...Why is wrong for a human to kill a baby? But not wrong for a Lion to kill a cub?

You cant have it both ways

Rostos, my dear friend, wherefore must you ask the same questions to me when you're clearly not interested in the answer? 

Yea, lions kill cubs under certain conditions.  Lion morality isn't the same as human morality.  It may or may not be immoral.  Go ask a lion.

Stop talking about "under atheism".  You don't understand it well enough to come up with decent questions for it.  You're making yourself look foolish and should stop.

So you admit Lions kill cubs for reasons other than for survival, ie, to feed on.

No, actually, survival is the reason lions kill the cubs.  Perhaps you should do more research into the effects this has on the females and the apparent reasons lions kill cubs.

Quote
Why is not wrong for a lion to kill a cub but it is wrong for a human to kill a baby?

Why the difference? After all, in the absence of God, we are all just animals, humans are nothing more than animals with more complex nervous systems.

Again, stop making claims about what things mean under atheism.  You refuse to listen to us when we talk to you about atheism and how things actually are in an atheistic universe.  Stop trying to tell atheists what atheism is really like.
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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2016, 09:50:40 pm »
Quote
It's not wrong, lions aren't capable of doing wrong. Human adults are (probably) the only animals that are capable of wrongdoing.

Wrong according to what/who?

Nothing and no one, since I'm not a subjectivist like you.

Can I take this irrelevant question to mean that you now understand that your argument is invalid?

I am not a subjecticist....I am not a voluntarist.

and i am waiting for you to ground OM outside human opinion.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2016, 09:56:37 pm »
So Lions dont kill cubs in the Wild?

As i said we see Lions kill for cubs all the time and not for food.

Are they doing anything wrong? Do they have a duty not to kill cubs?

Under atheism, humans are just animals...Why is wrong for a human to kill a baby? But not wrong for a Lion to kill a cub?

You cant have it both ways

Rostos, my dear friend, wherefore must you ask the same questions to me when you're clearly not interested in the answer? 

Yea, lions kill cubs under certain conditions.  Lion morality isn't the same as human morality.  It may or may not be immoral.  Go ask a lion.

Stop talking about "under atheism".  You don't understand it well enough to come up with decent questions for it.  You're making yourself look foolish and should stop.

So you admit Lions kill cubs for reasons other than for survival, ie, to feed on.

No, actually, survival is the reason lions kill the cubs.  Perhaps you should do more research into the effects this has on the females and the apparent reasons lions kill cubs.

Right, so do you know why the Lions kill? It would be akin to someone killing there children so the mothers can get ready QUICKER to mate again. Would that be wrong for humans?

Quote
Why is not wrong for a lion to kill a cub but it is wrong for a human to kill a baby?

Why the difference? After all, in the absence of God, we are all just animals, humans are nothing more than animals with more complex nervous systems.

Again, stop making claims about what things mean under atheism.  You refuse to listen to us when we talk to you about atheism and how things actually are in an atheistic universe.  Stop trying to tell atheists what atheism is really like.

I cant help it if you dont like the logical consequences of atheism.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2016, 10:54:25 pm »
Quote
It's not wrong, lions aren't capable of doing wrong. Human adults are (probably) the only animals that are capable of wrongdoing.

Wrong according to what/who?

Nothing and no one, since I'm not a subjectivist like you.

Can I take this irrelevant question to mean that you now understand that your argument is invalid?

I am not a subjecticist....I am not a voluntarist.

Same thing.

Quote
and i am waiting for you to ground OM outside human opinion

No you're not. I proved that your argument is invalid and you suddenly changed the topic. How convenient.

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2016, 11:24:33 pm »
Quote
It's not wrong, lions aren't capable of doing wrong. Human adults are (probably) the only animals that are capable of wrongdoing.

Wrong according to what/who?

Nothing and no one, since I'm not a subjectivist like you.

Can I take this irrelevant question to mean that you now understand that your argument is invalid?

I am not a subjecticist....I am not a voluntarist.

Same thing.

No. Here is some light reading. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/argument-from-morality

Quote
and i am waiting for you to ground OM outside human opinion

No you're not. I proved that your argument is invalid and you suddenly changed the topic. How convenient.

No you haven't. Objective morality doesnt exist in a Naturalistic world.


"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12