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Moral Argument

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Atheist in Louisiana

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2016, 07:58:09 am »
So Lions dont kill cubs in the Wild?

As i said we see Lions kill for cubs all the time and not for food.

Are they doing anything wrong? Do they have a duty not to kill cubs?

Under atheism, humans are just animals...Why is wrong for a human to kill a baby? But not wrong for a Lion to kill a cub?

You cant have it both ways

Rostos, my dear friend, wherefore must you ask the same questions to me when you're clearly not interested in the answer? 

Yea, lions kill cubs under certain conditions.  Lion morality isn't the same as human morality.  It may or may not be immoral.  Go ask a lion.

Stop talking about "under atheism".  You don't understand it well enough to come up with decent questions for it.  You're making yourself look foolish and should stop.

So you admit Lions kill cubs for reasons other than for survival, ie, to feed on.

No, actually, survival is the reason lions kill the cubs.  Perhaps you should do more research into the effects this has on the females and the apparent reasons lions kill cubs.

Right, so do you know why the Lions kill? It would be akin to someone killing there children so the mothers can get ready QUICKER to mate again. Would that be wrong for humans?

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Why is not wrong for a lion to kill a cub but it is wrong for a human to kill a baby?

Why the difference? After all, in the absence of God, we are all just animals, humans are nothing more than animals with more complex nervous systems.

Again, stop making claims about what things mean under atheism.  You refuse to listen to us when we talk to you about atheism and how things actually are in an atheistic universe.  Stop trying to tell atheists what atheism is really like.

I cant help it if you dont like the logical consequences of atheism.

Learn to use the quote feature.  I'm not fishing through the quote to figure out what you're trying to say.  quote and /quote are easy to use.  Figure it out.
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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2016, 08:40:11 am »
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No you haven't. Objective morality doesnt exist in a Naturalistic world.

How good atheism doesn't equal naturalism.
You see a grammar or spelling error in my post? Feel free to point it out, I'm still learning.

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aleph naught

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2016, 10:02:39 am »
It's funny how Rostos loses the capacity to use the quote feature just when he knows he's been thoroughly refuted.

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2016, 05:37:44 pm »
Quote
No you haven't. Objective morality doesnt exist in a Naturalistic world.

How good atheism doesn't equal naturalism.

The overwhelming majority of atheists are indeed naturalists.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2016, 05:38:19 pm »
It's funny how Rostos loses the capacity to use the quote feature just when he knows he's been thoroughly refuted.

Still waiting for you to show how moral values and duties are grounded outside the human mind.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

5
Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2016, 07:50:10 pm »
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No you haven't. Objective morality doesnt exist in a Naturalistic world.

How good atheism doesn't equal naturalism.

The overwhelming majority of atheists are indeed naturalists.

Maybe you should then argue against those naturalists? Hmm? By the way why do you keep saying that we need some account for moral values? Why one can't just believe there is eternal metaphysical set of rules ingrained in our reality that tells what's moral and what's not? Laws of physics aren't objective nor prescriptive and the sheer fact we don't know about some of them and maybe will never know, doesn't mean they don't exist. I think the same may go for issue of morality

Another thing is that I sincirely don't understand how god helps you here in any way. Is your god good because he knows what is good and simply act in accordance to his knowledge? Then we have good that doesn't require any creator. Or is your god good itself? Since your god doesn't require creator it means good doesn't require any  creator too. In latter case given that god sometimes changes his mind you certainly don't get absolute morality and you also don't get objective morality, even if god is all powerful, all knowing being if the matter of right and wrong hinges on his will it means morality is subjective.It doesn't matter whether it's subject to the greatest or to the least mind.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 07:52:56 pm by UnreasonableFaith »
You see a grammar or spelling error in my post? Feel free to point it out, I'm still learning.

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2016, 08:33:10 pm »
Quote
No you haven't. Objective morality doesnt exist in a Naturalistic world.

How good atheism doesn't equal naturalism.

The overwhelming majority of atheists are indeed naturalists.

Maybe you should then argue against those naturalists? Hmm? By the way why do you keep saying that we need some account for moral values? Why one can't just believe there is eternal metaphysical set of rules ingrained in our reality that tells what's moral and what's not? Laws of physics aren't objective nor prescriptive and the sheer fact we don't know about some of them and maybe will never know, doesn't mean they don't exist. I think the same may go for issue of morality

You say "Why one can't just believe there is eternal metaphysical set of rules ingrained in our reality that tells what's moral and what's not". Rules come from minds/intelligence. If they are eternal then they were existing BEFORE any life was created, what are these rules doing existing in a godless universe?

Another thing is that I sincirely don't understand how god helps you here in any way. Is your god good because he knows what is good and simply act in accordance to his knowledge? Then we have good that doesn't require any creator. Or is your god good itself? Since your god doesn't require creator it means good doesn't require any  creator too. In latter case given that god sometimes changes his mind you certainly don't get absolute morality and you also don't get objective morality, even if god is all powerful, all knowing being if the matter of right and wrong hinges on his will it means morality is subjective.It doesn't matter whether it's subject to the greatest or to the least mind.

Neither. Gods nature is the good, and his commands flow from his nature. Also, i dont argue for moral absolutes. Rather, objective morality.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2016, 05:24:58 am »
I don't know what they were doing. I'm glad you don't see have any serious objections against this proposed belief. Does it mean you admit you don't need god for objective morality?

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Neither. Gods nature is the good, and his commands flow from his nature. Also, i dont argue for moral absolutes. Rather, objective morality.

Is god's nature good because of some higher objective standard or is god's nature good because its good by definition? You think you're debunking false dychotomy whereas all you do is that you move the problem one step farther. Obviously you can't concede god is good because there exist some higher objective moral standard by which god is measered, so you're left with second option that is morality is dependent on god's will. No matter how powerful and intelligent your god is, it still means morality is subjective.
You see a grammar or spelling error in my post? Feel free to point it out, I'm still learning.

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2016, 06:05:35 am »
I don't know what they were doing. I'm glad you don't see have any serious objections against this proposed belief. Does it mean you admit you don't need god for objective morality?

How does that even follow from what i said?

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Neither. Gods nature is the good, and his commands flow from his nature. Also, i dont argue for moral absolutes. Rather, objective morality.

Is god's nature good because of some higher objective standard or is god's nature good because its good by definition? You think you're debunking false dychotomy whereas all you do is that you move the problem one step farther. Obviously you can't concede god is good because there exist some higher objective moral standard by which god is measered, so you're left with second option that is morality is dependent on god's will. No matter how powerful and intelligent your god is, it still means morality is subjective.

There is no problem. As i said, it is in Gods nature the good resides in.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

9
Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2016, 06:40:01 am »
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How does that even follow from what i said?

Do you have any objection against belief system I showed to you other than "there was time when there were no living creatures to obey those laws"?

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There is no problem. As i said, it is in Gods nature the good resides in.

Ok, very good, it means that good is independent from god, it doesn't have to reside in him and still remain good. I think I can take it as an admission that existence of objective good and evil doesn't require the existence of god.
You see a grammar or spelling error in my post? Feel free to point it out, I'm still learning.

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2016, 07:01:11 am »
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How does that even follow from what i said?

Do you have any objection against belief system I showed to you other than "there was time when there were no living creatures to obey those laws"?

Objective morality means that laws/rules exist outside and independent of human opinion/preference. That means if no humans/sentient beings existed, those laws/rules still exist.

As i said, laws/rules come from lawgivers ie, minds, intelligence. That would mean a mind/intelligence was existing before any humans or sentient existence and existed infinite in the past.

This is not possible in the absence of God.


Quote
There is no problem. As i said, it is in Gods nature the good resides in.

Ok, very good, it means that good is independent from god, it doesn't have to reside in him and still remain good. I think I can take it as an admission that existence of objective good and evil doesn't require the existence of god.

That doesnt even make sense. God IS the standard of God, and that good is his very nature.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

11
Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2016, 07:36:15 am »
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As i said, laws/rules come from lawgivers ie, minds, intelligence. That would mean a mind/intelligence was existing before any humans or sentient existence and existed infinite in the past.

So you believe laws of physics require lawgivers too? Or maybe you believe that laws of physics are subjective? If neither of these option is true I don't see what's your problem with moral laws.

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That doesnt even make sense. God IS the standard of God, and that good is his very nature.

So now you change your mind and god is standard of good after all? So you believe good is subjective to will of god right? What's the problem then with subjective morality?

No matter how you formulate it, something either is or isn't standard of good.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 07:42:05 am by UnreasonableFaith »
You see a grammar or spelling error in my post? Feel free to point it out, I'm still learning.

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Rostos

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2016, 08:24:16 am »
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As i said, laws/rules come from lawgivers ie, minds, intelligence. That would mean a mind/intelligence was existing before any humans or sentient existence and existed infinite in the past.

So you believe laws of physics require lawgivers too? Or maybe you believe that laws of physics are subjective? If neither of these option is true I don't see what's your problem with moral laws.

No. Moral laws are not like physical laws, such as the law of gravity. Gravity tells us simply what is. It doesn't tell us whether falling at 9.8 m/s2 is good, bad, or neutral. Moral laws, though, do give us a standard by which we must adhere. Since moral laws are prescriptive (they tell not what one is doing but what one ought to do) and universal, they must transcend humanity. Moral laws cannot be based in physical reality but must come from a moral lawgiver.

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That doesnt even make sense. God IS the standard of God, and that good is his very nature.

So now you change your mind and god is standard of good after all? So you believe good is subjective to will of god right? What's the problem then with subjective morality?

No matter how you formulate it, something either is or isn't standard of good.

"No.” God’s moral character is essential to Him; that’s why we said it was part of His nature. To say that some property is essential to God is to say that there is no possible world in which God could have existed and lacked that property. God didn’t just happen by accident to be loving, kind, just, and so forth. He is that way essentially.


"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

13

Atheist in Louisiana

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2016, 09:06:17 am »
It's funny how Rostos loses the capacity to use the quote feature just when he knows he's been thoroughly refuted.

Still waiting for you to show how moral values and duties are grounded outside the human mind.

Don't you believe that moral values and duties are grounded outside the human mind?  You believe they are grounded in a god don't you?  Unless you think that human minds are gods...
Had the magazine not published these cartoons, they would not have been specifically targeted.
Consequences, AiL, consequences. - Jenna Black

Hey, if you want to, I'm more than ok with it.  :)  I love the attention. - Questions11

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Re: Thoughts On Morals / Ethics
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2016, 09:54:12 am »
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No. Moral laws are not like physical laws, such as the law of gravity. Gravity tells us simply what is. It doesn't tell us whether falling at 9.8 m/s2 is good, bad, or neutral. Moral laws, though, do give us a standard by which we must adhere. Since moral laws are prescriptive (they tell not what one is doing but what one ought to do) and universal, they must transcend humanity. Moral laws cannot be based in physical reality but must come from a moral lawgiver.

I really don't understand that distinction between "is" and ought" in case of morality. In case of moral deeds "is" is the same as "ought" simply by definition. What would it even mean that there is action X and Y and X is morally good yet you're not ought to choose it in order to be good?

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"No.” God’s moral character is essential to Him; that’s why we said it was part of His nature. To say that some property is essential to God is to say that there is no possible world in which God could have existed and lacked that property. God didn’t just happen by accident to be loving, kind, just, and so forth. He is that way essentially.

Is this part of god's character that you call "good" good because it's part of god's character or is it good on its own? You can't say "both" because one doesn't require second and you can't say "neither" because there are no other options (something is either good by definition or it's based on deeper foundation)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 09:58:53 am by UnreasonableFaith »
You see a grammar or spelling error in my post? Feel free to point it out, I'm still learning.