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Moral Argument

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John Prytz

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Animal Morality
« on: October 17, 2016, 04:49:24 am »
Evolution explains morality quite nicely since morality can be observed in the animal kingdom. I can cite a personal example. I have two cats. They absolutely hate each other. I can count on there being several cat-fights a day. However, there are certain occasions when there is a mutual truce in force. No cat will attack the other cat when the other cat is eating, going to the bathroom, or sleeping. Some sort of moral code is in play under those circumstances.

There are many examples of animals coming to the aid of other animals. One case I can cite is a cockatoo tangled up in some wires. Other cockatoos brought the entangled bird food. It had a happy ending when humans came to the rescue and freed the bird.

Stories of dolphins protecting humans from sharks are legendary. Dogs guarding and defending a companion dog that's been injured, even against humans who are coming to help the injured dog, are a well established natural moral phenomena. You don't have to dig too far into the literature to uncover lots of examples of members of one species behaving morally toward other members of the same species even when they don't have to and they derive no benefits by doing so.

Cats, cockatoos, dolphins, and dogs haven't read the Bible. The concept of God and God's [alleged] morality is meaningless to them. They didn't get their morality from God.

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aleph naught

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2016, 12:54:14 pm »
Be careful to not conflate morality itself with moral behavior or attitudes.

Talk of "morality" refers to properties such as goodness, evilness, rightness, wrongness, virtuousness, viciousness, and so on. It does not refer to the patterns of behavior that we typically deem good, or to opinions about what is good, or the like.

Craig think that moral properties are ontologically dependent on God, or that they are in some way constituted of theological properties (e.g., being commanded by God, or being in some way or anther like God). Craig does not think that we need God to be good people or behave morally, or that we need God to have beliefs about morality or knowledge of morality. And while Craig does think that God is responsible for our being moral and our ethical attitudes, this is only because he thinks that God is responsible for everything in creation. But it is perfectly consistent with his argument that God is not responsible for giving us our patters of moral behavior, or our attitudes about morality.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 12:59:05 pm by aleph naught »

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Rostos

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2016, 01:51:42 am »
Evolution explains morality quite nicely since morality can be observed in the animal kingdom. I can cite a personal example. I have two cats. They absolutely hate each other. I can count on there being several cat-fights a day. However, there are certain occasions when there is a mutual truce in force. No cat will attack the other cat when the other cat is eating, going to the bathroom, or sleeping. Some sort of moral code is in play under those circumstances.

There are many examples of animals coming to the aid of other animals. One case I can cite is a cockatoo tangled up in some wires. Other cockatoos brought the entangled bird food. It had a happy ending when humans came to the rescue and freed the bird.

Stories of dolphins protecting humans from sharks are legendary. Dogs guarding and defending a companion dog that's been injured, even against humans who are coming to help the injured dog, are a well established natural moral phenomena. You don't have to dig too far into the literature to uncover lots of examples of members of one species behaving morally toward other members of the same species even when they don't have to and they derive no benefits by doing so.

Cats, cockatoos, dolphins, and dogs haven't read the Bible. The concept of God and God's [alleged] morality is meaningless to them. They didn't get their morality from God.

And what about when a pack of ducks pack rape another duck? Is that wrong?

What about when a bear eats there own off spring? Is that wrong?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2016, 08:36:51 pm »
And what about when a pack of ducks pack rape another duck? Is that wrong?

What about when a bear eats there own off spring? Is that wrong?

No it's not, ducks and bears are not moral agents.

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Rostos

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2016, 08:47:05 pm »
And what about when a pack of ducks pack rape another duck? Is that wrong?

What about when a bear eats there own off spring? Is that wrong?

No it's not, ducks and bears are not moral agents.

And what makes humans moral agents if we are ALL just animals?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2016, 08:58:05 pm »
And what about when a pack of ducks pack rape another duck? Is that wrong?

What about when a bear eats there own off spring? Is that wrong?

No it's not, ducks and bears are not moral agents.

And what makes humans moral agents if we are ALL just animals?

We have knowledge of morality, and we're capable of reasoning through the moral significance and the consequences of our actions.

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Rostos

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 10:01:02 pm »
And what about when a pack of ducks pack rape another duck? Is that wrong?

What about when a bear eats there own off spring? Is that wrong?

No it's not, ducks and bears are not moral agents.

And what makes humans moral agents if we are ALL just animals?

We have knowledge of morality, and we're capable of reasoning through the moral significance and the consequences of our actions.

Who is we? ISIS? Al Qada? Nazi Germany? North Korea? Mao? Pot?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2016, 10:55:22 pm »
And what about when a pack of ducks pack rape another duck? Is that wrong?

What about when a bear eats there own off spring? Is that wrong?

No it's not, ducks and bears are not moral agents.

And what makes humans moral agents if we are ALL just animals?

We have knowledge of morality, and we're capable of reasoning through the moral significance and the consequences of our actions.

Who is we? ISIS? Al Qada? Nazi Germany? North Korea? Mao? Pot?

Yup, all of us.

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Rostos

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2016, 11:19:42 pm »
And what about when a pack of ducks pack rape another duck? Is that wrong?

What about when a bear eats there own off spring? Is that wrong?

No it's not, ducks and bears are not moral agents.

And what makes humans moral agents if we are ALL just animals?

We have knowledge of morality, and we're capable of reasoning through the moral significance and the consequences of our actions.

Who is we? ISIS? Al Qada? Nazi Germany? North Korea? Mao? Pot?

Yup, all of us.

The same Hitler who thought it wasn't wrong to to gas and kill 6 million Jews/homosexuals and mormons?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2016, 09:22:51 pm »
And what about when a pack of ducks pack rape another duck? Is that wrong?

What about when a bear eats there own off spring? Is that wrong?

No it's not, ducks and bears are not moral agents.

And what makes humans moral agents if we are ALL just animals?

We have knowledge of morality, and we're capable of reasoning through the moral significance and the consequences of our actions.

Who is we? ISIS? Al Qada? Nazi Germany? North Korea? Mao? Pot?

Yup, all of us.

The same Hitler who thought it wasn't wrong to to gas and kill 6 million Jews/homosexuals and mormons?

Are you having trouble understanding what "all of us" means?

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Rostos

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2017, 05:01:45 am »
And what about when a pack of ducks pack rape another duck? Is that wrong?

What about when a bear eats there own off spring? Is that wrong?

No it's not, ducks and bears are not moral agents.

And what makes humans moral agents if we are ALL just animals?

We have knowledge of morality, and we're capable of reasoning through the moral significance and the consequences of our actions.

Who is we? ISIS? Al Qada? Nazi Germany? North Korea? Mao? Pot?

Yup, all of us.

The same Hitler who thought it wasn't wrong to to gas and kill 6 million Jews/homosexuals and mormons?

Are you having trouble understanding what "all of us" means?

If God does not exist, then it is difficult to see any reason to think that human beings are special or that their morality is objectively true. Moreover, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything?

"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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aleph naught

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2017, 10:13:04 am »
If God does not exist, then it is difficult to see any reason to think that human beings are special or that their morality is objectively true. Moreover, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything?

Have you ever read a book on ethics? If you can't see it then you've probably never looked.

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alex1212

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2017, 04:17:17 pm »
If God does not exist, then it is difficult to see any reason to think that human beings are special or that their morality is objectively true. Moreover, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything?

Have you ever read a book on ethics? If you can't see it then you've probably never looked.

I agree. Often times it seems like some theists just appeal to incredulity/ignorance when it comes to morality and God. I mean, there are so many non-theistic theories of ethics that don't invoke God's existence.

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Rostos

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2017, 05:44:49 pm »
If God does not exist, then it is difficult to see any reason to think that human beings are special or that their morality is objectively true. Moreover, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything?

Have you ever read a book on ethics? If you can't see it then you've probably never looked.

You going to answer the question?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Animal Morality
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2017, 05:45:25 pm »
If God does not exist, then it is difficult to see any reason to think that human beings are special or that their morality is objectively true. Moreover, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything?

Have you ever read a book on ethics? If you can't see it then you've probably never looked.

I agree. Often times it seems like some theists just appeal to incredulity/ignorance when it comes to morality and God. I mean, there are so many non-theistic theories of ethics that don't invoke God's existence.

You going to answer the question?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12