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Is the Islamic religion a threat to the western way of life?

Christian: Yes! We need to take steps to limit the number of Muslims in America!
Christian: Yes! if we aren't careful they will take over our government!
Christian: Not Sure.  I haven't studied Islam enough to give an opinion.
Christian: No, people need to stop over reacting.  It's just a religion like all other religions.
Christian: No, people need to stop over reacting.  Legislation targeting Islam is bigot action.
Christian: No, there is no threat what-so-ever posed by Islam.
Not Christian: Yes! We need to take steps to limit the number of Muslims in America!
Not Christian: Yes! if we aren't careful they will take over our government!
Not Christian: Not Sure.  I haven't studied Islam enough to give an opinion.
Not Christian: No, people need to stop over reacting.  It's just a religion like all other religions.
Not Christian: No, people need to stop over reacting.  Legislation targeting Islam is bigot action.
Not Christian: No, there is no threat what-so-ever posed by Islam.

SPF

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Is Islam a Threat?
« on: November 22, 2016, 08:08:20 am »
I'm curious to see what people have to say about Islam.  I'm not sure why, but it almost seems as if Christians on this forum see Islam as a threat, and the atheists see no problem with the growth of Islam.  I don't see much agreement between the two sides over Islam, and honestly - I'm not sure why.

I really think it must come down to an education level over what Islam teaches that causes the divide between people.  I think anyone who actually takes the time to study Islam and understand what it teaches and what its goals as a religion are - would be concerned.  The fact that there are so many people on this forum defending Islam is concerning.  I don't know if it's ignorance, or if it's just that people like to argue. 

Islam is a dangerous religion.  Perhaps it is the fact that Western minded people cannot think past the idea of separation of Church and state and realize that there is no such separation in the mind of a Muslim.  For a Muslim, they desire to live under a government that is under Shariah law. 

The simple fact is that as Muslims move into a population, they begin to grow.  Once they reach critical mass, they are able to overtake the government and turn the country into an Islamic State.  This is quite simply - inevitable.  Places like France and Germany, I believe, could find a majority of voting power in the Muslims hands within 25 years.  That may seem like a long time, but it's really not.  And once they have a voting majority, then it's all over. 

Christianity can survive and thrive under almost any form of government, even governments that are openly hostile towards Christianity.  Christianity and other religions, while certainly opinionated on political matters, are nothing compared to Islam. 

Even if 95% of the Muslim population could be considered passive, and non-aggressive, that wouldn't matter.  Imagine in America we get to the point where there are 70 million registered Muslim voters.  At that point, even if 95% of them are passive and non-aggressive, they would still vote for all Muslim candidates.  Then you have a Muslim house, a Muslim senate, and a Muslim President.  How long do you think it would take for them to dismantle and institute Shariah Law? 

The growth of Islam should be alarming to people. 
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

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bskeptic

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2016, 08:32:35 am »
Of course it's a dangerous religion.

imo there is a lot of pressure on the left for social conformity. If people step out of line they know they will no longer be accepted by that group... they know they will be thought of as a bigot etc.

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kurros

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2016, 08:40:17 am »
In Indonesia the population is 87% Muslim. Yet Sharia law is only enforced in one rather autonomous province, which happens to be a stronghold of particularly conservative Muslims. And it seems that this province has long been in dispute with the central government, with rebels fighting the government for 30 years until the 2004 Asian tsunami, which killed nearly 200,000 people in the province, after which the central government seems to have let them enforce Sharia only as part of a peace deal. Of course there plenty of examples of other majority Muslim countries with no enforcement of Sharia by government, e.g. Turkey.

So anyway, sure, some Muslim groups will want Sharia enforced, but clearly not all of them want that. So your indiscriminate generalisation is not founded in reality. You can see a map showing how Sharia law is applied here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 08:42:29 am by kurros »

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bskeptic

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2016, 08:47:31 am »
Of course there plenty of examples of other majority Muslim countries with no enforcement of Sharia by government, e.g. Turkey.

Turkey was a case of a deliberate secular movement changing society.

Anyway, even where you don't have proper sharia law in a country, you can still have Muslims enforcing sharia standards on others.

Egypt would be thought of as liberal for a Muslim country, (Middle East anyway), and yet Christians are brutally persecuted and sharia still holds influence even if not law. Also they need to beat down groups like the Muslim Brotherhood to keep them under control.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 08:55:43 am by bskeptic »

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bskeptic

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2016, 08:54:20 am »
In Indonesia the population is 87% Muslim. Yet Sharia law is only enforced in one rather autonomous province


Firebomb attack on church in Indonesia's East Kalimantan injures children

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-13/firebomb-attack-on-church-in-east-kalimantan-in-indonesia/8021722

A firebomb attack outside a church in Indonesia's East Kalimantan province has wounded four children.

A Molotov cocktail was thrown at the carpark of the Oikumene Church in the city of Samarinda.

The four children were slightly wounded and taken to hospital for treatment.

National police spokesman Brigadier-General Agus Riyanto said a number of vehicles were also damaged.

A suspect has been arrested and is being questioned by police.

Tensions have been high in Indonesia, with large Muslim crowds protesting against Jakarta's Christian Governor — known as Ahok — who they accuse of blasphemy.



Muslim Radicals Attack 200 Christians at Indonesian Church, Harass Priest for Reading the Bible

http://www.christianpost.com/news/muslim-radicals-attack-200-christians-indonesian-church-harass-priest-reading-bible-169273/





You don't need "full on" sharia government to have a problem.

5

AnimatedDirt

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2016, 09:11:18 am »
I'm curious to see what people have to say about Islam.  I'm not sure why, but it almost seems as if Christians on this forum see Islam as a threat, and the atheists see no problem with the growth of Islam.  I don't see much agreement between the two sides over Islam, and honestly - I'm not sure why.

They're too busy standing atop their moral high ground proclaiming themselves and their ideals superior...all the while Islam is creeping in...and Islam has no qualms with fighting against infidels.  In a few years, the atheists/liberals will be wishing they had put a stop to Islam when they had a chance to.  They (atheist/liberals) think Christians legislate their morality...heh.  Islam will not try and legislate their morals...they will chop off the heads of those that try and rock their boat!
People are amusing.

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kurros

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2016, 09:19:59 am »
Of course there plenty of examples of other majority Muslim countries with no enforcement of Sharia by government, e.g. Turkey.

Turkey was a case of a deliberate secular movement changing society.

Anyway, even where you don't have proper sharia law in a country, you can still have Muslims enforcing sharia standards on others.

Egypt would be thought of as liberal for a Muslim country, (Middle East anyway), and yet Christians are brutally persecuted and sharia still holds influence even if not law. Also they need to beat down groups like the Muslim Brotherhood to keep them under control.

I don't see how any of that supports SPF's sweeping claim.

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bskeptic

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2016, 09:24:12 am »

I don't see how any of that supports SPF's sweeping claim.

If we imagine that Muslims became a majority in a Western country, I don't think they would instantly all vote as a block for sharia law, but still, maybe not a good experiment to try?

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Pieter

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2016, 09:44:45 am »
I disagree with all of the above options.

Mine would be more like... Christian: We need to expose what Islam really teaches from the Quran and Sunnah and Christians need to love and share the Gospel with them. The difference between the Islamic teaching and Jesus' is like day and night. So there is much hope to be shared :)

So from where I am standing, the only hope for Muslims is Christianity and therefore the only hope for Western civilization (assuming Islam is a real threat) is Christianity.

I have come to know a Muslim colleague for a couple of years and we have debated till the cows came home. But I have learnt so much about Islam. Because he would make all sorts of claims which after investigating for myself turned out to be spurious. Along with it I started reading the quran and looked into some classical commentaries (generally respected ones that are early as well). These are called the Tafsir. They give historical context from the early biography of Muhammad and the Hadith. You can find all of this online. Boy, this is very revealing!

What struck me is something that Nabeel Qureshi said in a video. He among many Muslims did not have a clue about all the violence, supremacy and conquering nature of Islam. They were taught that Islam is beautiful and peace loving. They get taught selective material and it wasn't until he started looking into the original sources that he discovered that Islam is very dark and violent.

So I think we should not take things out on Muslims, but we should fear Islam as a religio-political system. Of course, as long as most Muslims do not know about the other dark nature, we don't have to fear. The problem is that the leaders, Imams etc... DO know about this and they tend to be in charge if a country is Islamisized.
Pieter van Leeuwen

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Apparition

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2016, 10:07:44 am »
In Indonesia the population is 87% Muslim. Yet Sharia law is only enforced in one rather autonomous province, which happens to be a stronghold of particularly conservative Muslims. And it seems that this province has long been in dispute with the central government, with rebels fighting the government for 30 years until the 2004 Asian tsunami, which killed nearly 200,000 people in the province, after which the central government seems to have let them enforce Sharia only as part of a peace deal. Of course there plenty of examples of other majority Muslim countries with no enforcement of Sharia by government, e.g. Turkey.

So anyway, sure, some Muslim groups will want Sharia enforced, but clearly not all of them want that. So your indiscriminate generalisation is not founded in reality. You can see a map showing how Sharia law is applied here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country

It does not matter what certain muslims do in a specific region, it matters what Islam itself teaches as an ideology (whether or not certain muslims enforce what Islam teaches). The point is, it is not anti-Islamic what things like ISIS do, and that is the problem.
Is this where I put the signature?

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JFS

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2016, 10:23:03 am »
There is little doubt that the ire of many western atheists is squarely focused on Christian theism (and followers).

This group will take along whichever group wishes to join them in calling out Christian theists.   I'm surmising that is why there is such an overwhelming reluctance for many in the atheist crowd to generalize about Muslims but then having no problem in wild generalizations and characterizations about Christians.   It's scriptural that this kind of thing will happen of course.  I'm thankful that the nastiness is so light compared to people with real persecution being faced in other countries but it is foolish to deny the anti-Christian sentiment by a big portion of the atheist population.

To answer the OP, the ideology of Islam clearly calls for conquest and taking over of real estate to establish an Islamic empire.  If that doesn't sound threatening to people, then I don't know what does.   Having said that, I recognize a huge part of the faithful Muslim population has no interest in such a conquest (they are peace loving).   If we stare into the face of the ideology, a warring/intolerant ideology is unavoidable.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 10:26:31 am by JFS »
"Influencing people for the good of myself is manipulation; influencing people for the good of the kingdom is motivation." -Alistair Begg

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kurros

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2016, 10:27:52 am »
There is little doubt that the ire of many western atheists is squarely focused on Christian theism (and followers).

This group will take along whichever group wishes to join them in calling out Christian theists.   I'm surmising that is why there is such an overwhelming reluctance for many in the atheist crowd to generalize about Muslims but then having no problem in wild generalizations and characterizations about Christians.   It's scriptural that this kind of thing will happen of course.  I'm thankful that the nastiness is so light compared to people with real persecution being faced in other countries but it is foolish to deny the anti-Christian sentiment by a big portion of the atheist population.

Well I think that would be deeply mistaken of you. As a simple example, I think that young Earth creationists are quite in the grip of a deep cult-like delusion, but by no means do I think all Christians are so misguided. Indeed I think most of them are perfectly reasonable people. Nor do I think all Christians are so prone to the sweeping generalisations that many around here aim at both Muslims and atheists.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 10:29:59 am by kurros »

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TheCross

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2016, 10:42:08 am »
In Indonesia the population is 87% Muslim. Yet Sharia law is only enforced in one rather autonomous province, which happens to be a stronghold of particularly conservative Muslims. And it seems that this province has long been in dispute with the central government, with rebels fighting the government for 30 years until the 2004 Asian tsunami, which killed nearly 200,000 people in the province, after which the central government seems to have let them enforce Sharia only as part of a peace deal. Of course there plenty of examples of other majority Muslim countries with no enforcement of Sharia by government, e.g. Turkey.

So anyway, sure, some Muslim groups will want Sharia enforced, but clearly not all of them want that. So your indiscriminate generalisation is not founded in reality. You can see a map showing how Sharia law is applied here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country

In indonesia, the christian minority is being brutally abused, raped and murdered...

Sharia is not needed for islam to act with dominance against the people that do not adhere to it, there are prime examples, turkey, indonesia, malasia, marocco are some you can read up on.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Paterfamilia

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2016, 10:43:34 am »
There is little doubt that the ire of many western atheists is squarely focused on Christian theism (and followers).

This group will take along whichever group wishes to join them in calling out Christian theists.   I'm surmising that is why there is such an overwhelming reluctance for many in the atheist crowd to generalize about Muslims but then having no problem in wild generalizations and characterizations about Christians.   It's scriptural that this kind of thing will happen of course.  I'm thankful that the nastiness is so light compared to people with real persecution being faced in other countries but it is foolish to deny the anti-Christian sentiment by a big portion of the atheist population.

Well I think that would be deeply mistaken of you. As a simple example, I think that young Earth creationists are quite in the grip of a deep cult-like delusion, but by no means do I think all Christians are so misguided. Indeed I think most of them are perfectly reasonable people. Nor do I think all Christians are so prone to the sweeping generalisations that many around here aim at both Muslims and atheists.


Couldn't disagree more with Kurros.  Ostrichism at its keenest.

I believe the lack of "Muslims against Jihad" by the peace loving people of Islam gives tacit approval to the radicals.

Kurros, please understand, heaven and hell both beckon to the muslim.  Their path to each is set according to their zeal or lack of zeal for allah.  They hate the west and western values partly because they see us as a cultural context in which they would be more tempted to sin, and therefore more likely to go to hell.

Its interesting that one of the terrorist murderers on flight 93 spent the night before watching porn movies.  He knew its a grievous sin for a muslim, but no worries.  His impending martyrdom would cover all that, and he would be welcomed into heaven.

They hate us most because we are not muslims.  That will never change because their god demands it.


"First I knocked them out of a tree with a rock.  Then I saved them."

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JFS

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Re: Is Islam a Threat?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 10:43:46 am »
There is little doubt that the ire of many western atheists is squarely focused on Christian theism (and followers).

This group will take along whichever group wishes to join them in calling out Christian theists.   I'm surmising that is why there is such an overwhelming reluctance for many in the atheist crowd to generalize about Muslims but then having no problem in wild generalizations and characterizations about Christians.   It's scriptural that this kind of thing will happen of course.  I'm thankful that the nastiness is so light compared to people with real persecution being faced in other countries but it is foolish to deny the anti-Christian sentiment by a big portion of the atheist population.

Well I think that would be deeply mistaken of you. As a simple example, I think that young Earth creationists are quite in the grip of a deep cult-like delusion, but by no means do I think all Christians are so misguided. Indeed I think most of them are perfectly reasonable people. Nor do I think all Christians are so prone to the sweeping generalisations that many around here aim at both Muslims and atheists.

Indeed, YEC'ers have raised so much conflict in the U.S. with their violent attacks on others, terrorist attacks, etc...or....wait.   ;)

Again, when staring at the plain ideology of Islam, it is very difficult to escape the desire to conquer and such an ideology should be concerning to any peace loving citizen.   I didn't see that you were necessarily concerned with it and would be curious as to your spin on the various conquesting dictates from the Quran.   Do you support this or do you think it to be dangerous?   If you see it on the same level as someone who believes in young earth creationism then I think it would be wise for you to reevaluate your logic.

Thankfully, not all Muslims take these dictates to heart but that does not detract from the fact that the ideology does empower radicalism and terrorism.    By focusing on the overall goals of the ideology, we can take the focus off people.   We certainly wouldn't be so tolerant of Mein Kampf as an acceptable ideology in our society today.   Islamic ideology calls for similar conquesting and conquering.

"Influencing people for the good of myself is manipulation; influencing people for the good of the kingdom is motivation." -Alistair Begg