Poll

Cofee or tea?

Ivory tower tea
1 (6.3%)
Cofee in the trenches
7 (43.8%)
Cofee and tea
3 (18.8%)
Cofee stains my teeth
0 (0%)
What?
5 (31.3%)

Total Members Voted: 16

ParaclitosLogos

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What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« on: November 25, 2016, 08:16:35 am »
It´s not good, I am somewhat sorry to forecast


It has been over 4 years that I came into this forums looking for clarity and understanding, personal, and, mutual. Since then, I think, I have learned many things about philosophy , theology, and Christianity, in that sense it has been rather satisfactory, but most of it has been my own effort and preparation, to address the subjects and exchanges provided by the forums, in the best way I can, I have read, and, read, and, studied, and watched as much information about these subjects as I can possibly have done, given my obligations and daily tasks, day and night, every moment I have had at hand I have dedicated to learn about them.


I have met some well-informed posters, and, some rather smart ones, but sadly, for the most part, I have met too many uninformed, unwitty participants, that worst of all, think they really have the whole truth under their arm.

Yesterday, I encountered a meme supposedly from a quote from Bill Murray that stated:

"It´s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it´s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person"

This made me think instantly about RF participants on all sides.

At this point it seems to me, after observing the near impossibility to either win arguments, reach agreements, clarify views with one another, that either, most of them are too stupid, we are too stupid, or all of us are too stupid.

Whatever is the case, I think, that the unavoidable conclusion is that even among people who are more educated than the average people, and, are smarter than most others of their fellow citizens and human beings there is no hope of conciliation and mutual understanding.


In the end, it will be reduced to who can push more, and hurt more the other, and all these discussions and exchanges are all for leisure and time spending.


« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 09:38:44 am by ontologicalme »

1

lucious

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2016, 08:51:54 am »
I'll also add that, sadly, the ones who control the flow of dialectic on internet forums are not the ones who are most well read, intelligent, educated, and with the truth behind them.

It is those with numbers. It's an effective and frequently used tactic to simply identify a smart, rigorous, educated opponent and simply outnumber him 10-20 to 1 and start trolling. Whenever an intelligent dissent is presented, harange, inveigle, bash, bully and troll the person in droves. Shout them down, ignore intellectual material, deliberately try to upset the person, lie and slander them. Rely on pack mentality. Display abject hypocrisy. Never betray the online e-friends.

Whenever the person reacts, points out the lack of argument and truth on the trolls side--dont admit to it--call more trolls to run to the defense and keep trolling them. Inundate the person with so much trollish, anti-social and monotonous behaviour until they realise they cant win--and this drives them from the forum.

It happened to Jemma, which is sad. She was a kind, intelligent and truth-seeking poster, and she ended up in the trolls cross-hairs.

2

Nunovalente

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2016, 09:53:03 am »
I joined RF forum anticipating more dialogue with christians, however, the main tends to be there are more non christians looking for an argument, rather than christians having the opportunity to sharpen each other.

While I understand those interested in philosophy wanting to discuss, a philosophy forum would be the expected channel. Im surprised at so many non theists choosing this site, that seem to have little but contempt for the work of WLC, yet choose to discuss their knowledge on a site they have little respect for the author.

There are too many topic areas, from what I can see this is the only one used. As such, its virtually impossible to develop a discussion from a christian perspective.

Perhaps the Mods could narrow down the topic folders, and have one for christians only to discuss issues?
RF is primarily for christians, to help them see the reasonableness of their faith, not for non theists. Its a shame the forum does not allow the opportunity for those exploring these issues to discuss them, without the non theist getting involved. Those new to these issues are easily put off.
Faith is being confident in things hoped for, the conviction of facts not yet seen. Hebrews 11.
Everyone exercises faith in something. What is your faith in?

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ParaclitosLogos

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2016, 09:58:52 am »
Keep in mind that WLC is a philosopher just as much as he is a theologian, and, he is better known for his work as the former than the later.

That said, I´d love to see only theist and only Christian subject’s threads, formally available, with theists and Christians actively engaging in a more sharing attitude, in a less confrontational environment.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 10:00:41 am by ontologicalme »

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Harvey

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2016, 10:03:28 am »
I have a more positive viewpoint. I can remember debates I had 20 years ago and there was very little communication between theists and atheists. At least now we seem to be getting closer to the actual issues.

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Nunovalente

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2016, 10:13:16 am »
Keep in mind that WLC is a philosopher just as much as he is a theologian, and, he is better known for his work as the former than the later.

That said, I´d love to see only theist and only Christian subject’s threads, formally available, with theists and Christians actively engaging in a more sharing attitude, in a less confrontational environment.

Indeed, but the mission of RF is....

Our Mission

Reasonable Faith aims to provide in the public arena an intelligent, articulate, and uncompromising yet gracious Christian perspective on the most important issues concerning the truth of the Christian faith today, such as:

the existence of God
the meaning of life
the objectivity of truth
the foundation of moral values
the creation of the universe
intelligent design
the reliability of the Gospels
the uniqueness of Jesus
the historicity of the resurrection
the challenge of religious pluralism

Reasonable Faith features the work of philosopher and theologian Dr. William Lane Craig in order to carry out its three-fold mission:

to provide an articulate, intelligent voice for biblical Christianity in the public arena.
to challenge unbelievers with the truth of biblical Christianity.
to train Christians to state and defend Christian truth claims with greater effectiveness.


The forum certainly needs a section to teach and train, separate from the challenge to unbelievers. Who do we propose it to?
Faith is being confident in things hoped for, the conviction of facts not yet seen. Hebrews 11.
Everyone exercises faith in something. What is your faith in?

6

Crash Test

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2016, 10:29:25 am »

It's an effective and frequently used tactic to simply identify a smart, rigorous, educated opponent and simply outnumber him 10-20 to 1 and start trolling.

You can't think this describes you... right?  Like not even you could be this conceited?
-- This user will return on the twenty-fourth of July --

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ParaclitosLogos

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2016, 10:49:50 am »
I have a more positive viewpoint. I can remember debates I had 20 years ago and there was very little communication between theists and atheists. At least now we seem to be getting closer to the actual issues.

Cool. I´d sure like to have a better perception.

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Gordon Tubbs

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2016, 11:09:55 am »
If you want genuine, authentic, and meaningful Christian-on-Christian dialectic... then go to a Bible College or a Seminary. I mean it. That old maxim "you get what you pay for" rings very, very true when it comes to the Internet vs Institutions. This forum is free... so are we shocked that the conversations are cheap?

There are some pros and cons to Academia, but if you want serious discussion, I can't think of a better place to have it. As a Public Forum such as this, one should expect to see participation from all corners of the Public Square. I think there is some strength to be had with the diversity, but there is also a watering down effect, and the constant threat of anti-intellectualism.

There was a similar thread to this one not too too long ago, I can't remember who started it, but it sort of asked a similar question: why do the "good" posters wind up leaving? There were many wise words in response to that question, but a memorable quote was something along the lines of "if you feel comfortable and secure in your ivory tower and you can't seem to convince the humble lowly masses with your arguments and commentaries, then perhaps you should examine yourself and see how you can improve your communication methods."

Combating anti-intellectualism is the good fight.

Dialectic in a Public Forum is the good fight.

Let the trolls eat their cake!

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ParaclitosLogos

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2016, 11:16:22 am »
If you want genuine, authentic, and meaningful Christian-on-Christian dialectic... then go to a Bible College or a Seminary. I mean it. That old maxim "you get what you pay for" rings very, very true when it comes to the Internet vs Institutions. This forum is free... so are we shocked that the conversations are cheap?

There are some pros and cons to Academia, but if you want serious discussion, I can't think of a better place to have it. As a Public Forum such as this, one should expect to see participation from all corners of the Public Square. I think there is some strength to be had with the diversity, but there is also a watering down effect, and the constant threat of anti-intellectualism.

There was a similar thread to this one not too too long ago, I can't remember who started it, but it sort of asked a similar question: why do the "good" posters wind up leaving? There were many wise words in response to that question, but a memorable quote was something along the lines of "if you feel comfortable and secure in your ivory tower and you can't seem to convince the humble lowly masses with your arguments and commentaries, then perhaps you should examine yourself and see how you can improve your communication methods."

Combating anti-intellectualism is the good fight.

Dialectic in a Public Forum is the good fight.

Let the trolls eat their cake!

This thread is not really about what I would like this forum to be, though, I did give a comment in that respect in answer to another poster.

I certainly agree that this is a cheap posts place, and that maybe there are other places I would be more confortable in my Ivory tower,  but, this is all besides the point of the OP.


I think, the quote you gave can be just right, or it might just be completely off.
Sometimes stupid people are just stupid people and no amount of communication skills will change that,
and sometimes, one´s communications skills just suck, big time, but again, this is all besides the point.

The point is more on the lines of, be it that I need to take a communication and people´s skills major, on a major University, to descend from the heights of my fumes, or that other interlocutors here are just as stupid as stone, or I am, I have little hope reason will win the day, that in the end of the day, what will have a say is force.


« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 11:24:27 am by ontologicalme »

10

Keith_

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2016, 11:23:21 am »
I joined RF forum anticipating more dialogue with christians, however, the main tends to be there are more non christians looking for an argument, rather than christians having the opportunity to sharpen each other.
I started coming to the RF with the same expectations. My assessment is identical.

This forum is an unhealthy environment and often a spectacle.

-Keith
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 12:11:39 pm by Keith_ »
Eccl.1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

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Lucian

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2016, 11:28:28 am »
If you want genuine, authentic, and meaningful Christian-on-Christian dialectic... then go to a Bible College or a Seminary. I mean it. That old maxim "you get what you pay for" rings very, very true when it comes to the Internet vs Institutions. This forum is free... so are we shocked that the conversations are cheap?

There are some pros and cons to Academia, but if you want serious discussion, I can't think of a better place to have it. As a Public Forum such as this, one should expect to see participation from all corners of the Public Square. I think there is some strength to be had with the diversity, but there is also a watering down effect, and the constant threat of anti-intellectualism.

There was a similar thread to this one not too too long ago, I can't remember who started it, but it sort of asked a similar question: why do the "good" posters wind up leaving? There were many wise words in response to that question, but a memorable quote was something along the lines of "if you feel comfortable and secure in your ivory tower and you can't seem to convince the humble lowly masses with your arguments and commentaries, then perhaps you should examine yourself and see how you can improve your communication methods."

Combating anti-intellectualism is the good fight.

Dialectic in a Public Forum is the good fight.

Let the trolls eat their cake!

Related to this, I'd be interested in knowing what proportion of regular participants here are college educated.

12

Apparition

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2016, 11:50:31 am »
I smell a poll a brewin
Is this where I put the signature?

13

ParaclitosLogos

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2016, 11:53:00 am »
I smell a poll a brewin

Due to popular clamor, there is a poll.

14

Nunovalente

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Re: What over 4 years of exchanges on RF has taught me.
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2016, 11:54:38 am »
I joined RF forum anticipating more dialogue with christians, however, the main tends to be there are more non christians looking for an argument, rather than christians having the opportunity to sharpen each other.
I started coming to the RF with the same expectations. My assessment is identical. This forum is an unhealthy environment and a spectacle.

-Keith

Lets push for change then. There is a need, and it fits the Mission mandate of RF.
The majority of WLC work affords this, but the forum does not assist in the teaching and training as it should.
A christian only topic area is needed.
Faith is being confident in things hoped for, the conviction of facts not yet seen. Hebrews 11.
Everyone exercises faith in something. What is your faith in?