MattMVS7

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Open-minded research is the only way to go
« on: February 18, 2017, 10:35:34 am »
Most Christians and other religious believers would say that researching all the claimed evidence with an open mind is of the devil since you are not believing Jesus and God with your heart.  But if someone told me that there is a sacred fairy and that it is sinful and evil of me to not believe in such a fairy, then how do you expect me to believe and take this person's word for it?

Even if I felt some sort of sacred divine feeling within myself that this fairy was somehow real, then how can I trust my own feelings?  Feelings do not tell you what is true and what is not true.  For example, I could feel that I am superman and can jump several feet into the air.  But just because I feel that way does not make it true.

Therefore, that leaves me no choice but to look into and research all the claimed evidence out there with an open mind regarding this sacred fairy (or, in this case, God).  It is often said by Christianity that we have no excuse for not believing in God.  Christianity says that God has closed off every excuse you could have for not believing in him since there is so much evidence out there for his existence.

But then again, other religions would make the same claim as well.  There are many other things out there besides religion that also make that same claim as well.  But just because people make this claim does not make it true.  It does not mean that any of the claimed evidence out there is actual evidence.  Yes, I will admit, when you look into the claimed evidence out there, it might really seem authentic.

But just because something sounds plausible or true does not make it so.  There are plenty of things in life that sound very plausible and true, but it turns out to be the case that they are not.  Everything all seems to add up to the definite conclusion that this said thing is very likely to be true, but that does not make it so because there are many other claims out there in which everything seems to all add up to their claims being true, but these said claims actually not being true and not plausible at all.

My open minded research has left me undecided on the issue of a God and an afterlife.  It is not because I am a corrupt sinner with rebellion and satan within my being.  Rather, it is because this is my honest open minded conclusion.  So if there is a hell and I go to hell for not believing in God, then that would just be plain unfair and cruel because I would be going to hell over a disbelief that I was genuine and honest about.  What kind of all loving/all just God would create such hopeless scenarios for me and others where we go to hell over a genuine and honest open minded disbelief?

Since God is also all knowing, then he should of foreseen this hopeless scenario that I would of been in and, therefore, would of created the universe in a different way.  He would of created the universe in such a way that I would be convinced he was real through an honest open mind.  Since this isn't the case, then that actually leans me a bit towards this God not being real.

There are many other people in this world who are also in hopeless scenarios that would send them to hell such as people in other areas of the world who don't believe in the Christian God or any other religious God/figure.  I just don't think an all loving, all just, and all knowing God would create the universe and his human creations in a way like this.

I realize that it was Adam and Eve eating the fruit that brought sin into the world.  But God should of kept that fruit safe in some far away area where Adam and Eve could never have gotten to it.  After all, I think God would of foreseen that Adam and Even might of rebelled and, therefore, God would of kept that fruit hidden someplace else such as in his heavenly kingdom.

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jayceeii

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Re: Open-minded research is the only way to go
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2020, 02:39:03 pm »
m7: Most Christians and other religious believers would say that researching all the claimed evidence with an open mind is of the devil since you are not believing Jesus and God with your heart.

jc: The Bible does not contain a clear teaching about the devil, instead what appear to be ancient poetic analogies. This in itself is evidence the Bible was not intended as a textbook. It is not a clear communication from God about critical existential questions such what the devil is or where he resides, suggesting God does not exist or God did not think humans could bear the truth. The phrase “of the devil” is common parlance, but it is a phrase without clear meaning. Perhaps devils wield the phrase, well aware what it means.

Jesus did ask men to love God with all their heart, but failed to differentiate God from a man, i.e. to point specifically beyond the human traits. The Bible says God’s ways are not men’s ways, but we aren’t told what God’s ways are and nobody asks. Jesus’ command resolves to hand waving none can follow. An adequate God-concept is needed to follow God.

m7: But if someone told me that there is a sacred fairy and that it is sinful and evil of me to not believe in such a fairy, then how do you expect me to believe and take this person's word for it?

jc: Indeed, you could substitute “sacred fairy” for the word “God” in the Bible, or any nonsensical term, because God is not defined usefully in the Bible as above humanity. People are stuck in their own concept-ground, and the religions allowed each man to pattern ideas of God after himself, although it’s easy to start listing incompatible virtues.

In fact merely to list these incompatible virtues becomes a self-proving religion, in a condition where the other religions that have satisfied men for ages, circle around men.

m7: Even if I felt some sort of sacred divine feeling within myself that this fairy was somehow real, then how can I trust my own feelings?

jc: This is the crux of a gigantic limitation in humanity that should’ve been first on everyone’s list since the religions began. Men guide themselves by their feelings of right and wrong, but no one is checking that these feelings are pointing them the right way.

m7: Feelings do not tell you what is true and what is not true.  For example, I could feel that I am superman and can jump several feet into the air.  But just because I feel that way does not make it true.

jc: Yes. It’s rather easy to show by reasoning that men’s feelings point them the wrong way, but any such analysis was left out of the religions, meaning they are not salvational. One of the quickest ways is to reason out how the angels dwell together in Heaven, then to ask why men are not meeting these standards. The religions are strikingly devoid of any such analysis, which also proves that the humans do not really want to go to Heaven.

m7: Therefore, that leaves me no choice but to look into and research all the claimed evidence out there with an open mind regarding this sacred fairy (or, in this case, God).

jc: Yes, but could you understand the paucity of solid teachings in the religions is a sign that God did not trust man? Jesus asked for faith, but did not Himself have faith in men.

m7: It is often said by Christianity that we have no excuse for not believing in God.  Christianity says that God has closed off every excuse you could have for not believing in him since there is so much evidence out there for his existence.

jc: They do say this, but without citing specific examples the argument becomes hand waving. Actually the major evidence Christians follow, is counting the other Christians. A man who cannot think for himself follows other men, and none can think about existential questions with authenticity. One might call it herd-thinking, a presumption large numbers equate to truth. There is a herd of the priesthood, and a herd of the congregants, but nobody who really knows, since Christianity has outlawed the prophets.

m7: But then again, other religions would make the same claim as well.  There are many other things out there besides religion that also make that same claim as well.  But just because people make this claim does not make it true.  It does not mean that any of the claimed evidence out there is actual evidence.  Yes, I will admit, when you look into the claimed evidence out there, it might really seem authentic.

jc: Indeed, all the religions are at loggerheads, each believing reason is behind them. No prophet has arisen to unify the religions, and all attempts to do so have been on false grounds. The reason this is so is that men have no metaphysical experience, so that their minds are generating fictitious patterns no matter what metaphysical theory is heard. In general men call it truth merely to be different from others, from a competitive mindset.

m7: But just because something sounds plausible or true does not make it so. 

jc: Oh? Have you found a plausible religion? I thought they were all implausible, with unworkable mechanisms and fantasy paradigms. I’d have thought anyone could see this.

m7: There are plenty of things in life that sound very plausible and true, but it turns out to be the case that they are not.

jc: Yes, including the notion men would truly care about the soul or the planet.

m7: Everything all seems to add up to the definite conclusion that this said thing is very likely to be true, but that does not make it so because there are many other claims out there in which everything seems to all add up to their claims being true, but these said claims actually not being true and not plausible at all.

jc: Just admit it, all the religions are false and misleading. The truth isn’t out there yet.

m7: My open minded research has left me undecided on the issue of a God and an afterlife.

jc: To take a truly personal stake in immortality would mean you are not only open to reading from the dead religions, but would be open to receive a living prophet. Instead the persecution of the saints that Jesus lamented is even more terrible now than back then.

m7: It is not because I am a corrupt sinner with rebellion and satan within my being. 

jc: Yes, “satan within your being,” that’s a common phrase but nobody knows what it means and nobody cares. The devils surely know what that means, but I do not. You’d be a corrupt sinner with rebellion in your being if you hated God’s purposes, but since the religions have not defined these purposes you’d never know. Judgment is not about human choice. God has not presented the real choices which would lead to salvation.

m7: Rather, it is because this is my honest open minded conclusion. 

jc: People claiming an open mind generally mean they are open to things with which they would agree. If I present a statement that is true but with which you did not agree, you will tell yourself, “That is wrong,” and still claim to have an open mind, going where you wish. In particular, it is tough to arrange a “court” where people would be forced to face the truth or falsity of basic propositions. One of the great fallacies is simply turning away.

m7: So if there is a hell and I go to hell for not believing in God, then that would just be plain unfair and cruel because I would be going to hell over a disbelief that I was genuine and honest about.

jc: Christianity has not defined “believing in God” meaningfully, so you are not safe from hell if you’re a Christian, if there is a hell. In general they mean attending services and listening to preachers, but as Jesus warned this is the blind leading the blind into a pit. You should be arguing that it would be plain unfair and cruel if God intended hell for you without giving any substantial warnings or guidance of what hell is or how to avoid it. Yet it wouldn’t be unfair or cruel, if God tried to tell you, and you simply turned away.

m7:  What kind of all loving/all just God would create such hopeless scenarios for me and others where we go to hell over a genuine and honest open minded disbelief?

jc: You haven’t understood the actions of the Creator. Men are not rising high enough to receive authentic guidance from God. This should’ve been very obvious from the paucity of the religions, especially today where any automotive handbook has more information than the Book of Genesis. God could speak but men wouldn’t listen. The Bible did say this, God’s ways are not yours, but the Bible did not tell you God’s ways so you could try. What you are calling “genuine and honest,” God might say is benighted and hateful.

m7: Since God is also all knowing, then he should of foreseen this hopeless scenario that I would of been in and, therefore, would of created the universe in a different way.

jc: Oh, so you’re an expert on creation now? God faces limits in the substance of creation itself. For instance, you couldn’t carve a golden ornament from a clay pot. The clay would need to be transmuted first. Similarly if souls are of a low quality, little can be done with them. There’s also a strange aspect that the souls don’t really want to be saved.

m7: He would of created the universe in such a way that I would be convinced he was real through an honest open mind. 

jc: You’d have to show me one human with an honest open mind. I’ve never met one. If I did I could quickly through simple propositions, give a convincing education in salvation.

m7: Since this isn't the case, then that actually leans me a bit towards this God not being real.

jc: You expect reality to meet you, when you are not able to bend to meet reality. You aren’t doing God any favors by believing in Him, but you would if you studied His ways.

m7: There are many other people in this world who are also in hopeless scenarios that would send them to hell such as people in other areas of the world who don't believe in the Christian God or any other religious God/figure.  I just don't think an all loving, all just, and all knowing God would create the universe and his human creations in a way like this.

jc: Again, belief is a poor and worthless thing when the God-concept is inadequate. There are no saving religions on the planet yet, only religions intended to bolster civilization. Religions in general had to make it seem like salvation was easy and rapid. This is a way to see they are all false or flawed, that the humans were drawing religion to their door rather than seeking the higher door as Jesus said, where He stands without and knocks.

m7: I realize that it was Adam and Eve eating the fruit that brought sin into the world.

jc: This is a metaphor for a man’s basic flaw of demanding to guide himself, i.e. deciding for himself what is good and evil rather than hearing about God’s ways and explanations. All men are eating the apple all the time, nor can this apple be torn from their greedy lips.

m7: But God should of kept that fruit safe in some far away area where Adam and Eve could never have gotten to it.

jc: That has to be coming, or the planet is forfeit. The world is still under the rubric of “be fruitful and multiply,” not yet in the sustainable condition that is ultimately needed.

m7:  After all, I think God would of foreseen that Adam and Even might of rebelled and, therefore, God would of kept that fruit hidden someplace else such as in his heavenly kingdom.

jc: Indeed, I would have brought Judgment a long time ago, as many Christians are praying for constantly. But the Invisible God still sees some value in what is going on.