Bill McEnaney

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Re: Functioning 'mechanical gears' seen in nature for the first time
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2017, 09:17:01 pm »
Quote from: kurros
Well, only if the object got broken, or the builder didn't follow the design properly. But in the case of God he is also the builder so that out is gone. So you claim we are broken? Ok, but then again God is omniscient so do you claim he didn't know we would become broken? If he did know, then we must be designed with that in mind. Which contradicts the theory we aren't "intended" to be this way. The only way around this is to admit God is not omnipotent and that some other being can screw up his plan, i.e. the devil or something. But many Christians insist that God is in fact omnipotent. If you don't then ok the devil could be responsible, but this is starting to be a convoluted and implausible theory
Since every omni-property each of the others, omnipotence implies that God can know when to allow flaws in his creatures and what purpose or purposes those flaws will serve for him.

If they are designed that way on purpose then they aren't flaws, they are features. So we cannot be both broken and designed by God.
Ultimately, what causes someone to be a human person is a human soul.  If God ensouls each person when his father's sperm fertilizes his mother's egg, humanoid bodies may have evolved by natural selection.  Natural selection would explain the flaws.  But each person would still need design because each soul is unique and belongs only to the person for whom God created it.  What makes my body mine is my soul.  If the human body evolved, then was still a first pair of human people, Adam and an Eve, because their humanoid ancestors were nonhumans with nonhuman souls.  God would still create in both theological senses of that verb.  He would make humans begin to exist and sustain them along with everyone else and everything else.  If you think that God intervenes in nature each time a new organism begins to live, does that imply that there are no secondary causes?  Is occasionalism true?  Do you, I animals, plants, and so forth only seem to cause events, since God is causing them instead?  He would fool us then, wouldn't he?  I don't see any conflict between creation.  We don't need to choose between them.  We have both, and evolution presupposes creation in both theological senses of the word.  I don't need to be a young earth creationist to be an orthodox Catholic.

In his encyclical Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII writes:

Quote
. . . the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.[11] Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

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kurros

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Re: Functioning 'mechanical gears' seen in nature for the first time
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2017, 01:21:02 am »
I don't see how there even really *is* such a thing as an independent "nature" if God exists. There would only be God. Anything that happens is a result of God's choices and will. It cannot be otherwise if he knows all the consequences of his actions and he initiates all action in the universe. Even if he only intervened once at the Big Bang this still seems to be the case. At minimum, God would have to be unable to foresee our choices if those choices are to be really our own and not just second-order choices of God. But then he wouldn't be omniscient.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 01:24:25 am by kurros »

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Rostos

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Re: Functioning 'mechanical gears' seen in nature for the first time
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2017, 08:10:47 am »
The way i see design, when God created it "was good", since the fall, earth and its creation has gone through degradation.

If we were not sinners and things are the way they are in terms of "flaws" in design, then the argument would hold, but it doesnt.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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joey

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Re: Functioning 'mechanical gears' seen in nature for the first time
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2017, 02:00:52 pm »
pretty interesting how the ID proponents like to simply assume design without any basis except that "it looks like it" and continues to shift the burden of evidence onto those who markedly DO NOT make the claim