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Moral Argument

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Rostos

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Re: Creature flourishing/well being
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2019, 02:11:50 pm »
Consider 2 societies,

Society A wants their society to advance and flourish. This is what they have defined as being right/good.

Society B wants to eliminate all creatures on the planet including their own and maximise suffering in the process. This is what they have defined as being right/good.

Which society is correct?

Before you answer, consider these:

Society A say that the earth is spherical in shape.

Society B say that the earth is flat.

Which society is right and why?

Most of society A say mangoes taste delicious.

Most of society B say mangoes taste terrible.

Which society is right? Are mangoes delicious or do they taste terrible and why?
Rostos,

Possibly this belongs on a new thread. I’d been thinking about writing in support of your contentions here, which have been basically sound, but the debate has been getting rather fragmented. In general you argue for the necessity of a mind, but I’d point out the morality humans have derived so far is inseparable from the self-interest of the animals.

I like this riddle and a challenge. My first response, that you seem to have foreseen, is that if Society A is taken to be the current society, we need to posit a Society C which would truly seek the long-term good of all citizens, rather than merely pretending to do so. However on another reading, Society B could be called the present society, and Society A a true society, which is to say one invoking the many for the common good rather than setting up a battle royale for limited resources by the families, as humans do.

You havent answered my question.
Which society is right?

On that reading, Society A is the one that faces all realities, inner and outer. Science says the Earth is spherical in shape and they accept it. Science also says the future generations are real and will require resources of their own, and they accept this too. Such people would understand demanding a car today, means one more tractor that can’t be built in the distant future. There are pleasant ways to travel without cars, but not to do farm labor.

Society A is only right and society B is wrong ONLY because society A can appeal to something "the actual shape of the earth" that is above and beyond any humans opinion, preferences and desires. That is, they can appeal to a FACT. This is the only reason why they are right and society B is wrong.

Citing mangoes seems to invoke a quotation by Ramakrishna, that he came to the planet to eat mangoes. The meaning is that the planet is inherently a blissful place, but to dwell blissfully upon it is far from easy. Ramakrishna and other mango-eaters have a bliss from above the senses that nonetheless enables complete detachment from the senses and any desire. This is the true proof that there is a mind, and that this mind is spiritual, the ability to follow principles and motives that seek the universal joy-state, not merely private joys.

You havent explained which society is right/wrong.

"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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jayceeii

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Re: Creature flourishing/well being
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2019, 03:15:32 pm »
Consider 2 societies,

Society A wants their society to advance and flourish. This is what they have defined as being right/good.

Society B wants to eliminate all creatures on the planet including their own and maximise suffering in the process. This is what they have defined as being right/good.

Which society is correct?

Before you answer, consider these:

Society A say that the earth is spherical in shape.

Society B say that the earth is flat.

Which society is right and why?

Most of society A say mangoes taste delicious.

Most of society B say mangoes taste terrible.

Which society is right? Are mangoes delicious or do they taste terrible and why?
Rostos,

Possibly this belongs on a new thread. I’d been thinking about writing in support of your contentions here, which have been basically sound, but the debate has been getting rather fragmented. In general you argue for the necessity of a mind, but I’d point out the morality humans have derived so far is inseparable from the self-interest of the animals.

I like this riddle and a challenge. My first response, that you seem to have foreseen, is that if Society A is taken to be the current society, we need to posit a Society C which would truly seek the long-term good of all citizens, rather than merely pretending to do so. However on another reading, Society B could be called the present society, and Society A a true society, which is to say one invoking the many for the common good rather than setting up a battle royale for limited resources by the families, as humans do.

You havent answered my question.
Which society is right?

On that reading, Society A is the one that faces all realities, inner and outer. Science says the Earth is spherical in shape and they accept it. Science also says the future generations are real and will require resources of their own, and they accept this too. Such people would understand demanding a car today, means one more tractor that can’t be built in the distant future. There are pleasant ways to travel without cars, but not to do farm labor.

Society A is only right and society B is wrong ONLY because society A can appeal to something "the actual shape of the earth" that is above and beyond any humans opinion, preferences and desires. That is, they can appeal to a FACT. This is the only reason why they are right and society B is wrong.

Citing mangoes seems to invoke a quotation by Ramakrishna, that he came to the planet to eat mangoes. The meaning is that the planet is inherently a blissful place, but to dwell blissfully upon it is far from easy. Ramakrishna and other mango-eaters have a bliss from above the senses that nonetheless enables complete detachment from the senses and any desire. This is the true proof that there is a mind, and that this mind is spiritual, the ability to follow principles and motives that seek the universal joy-state, not merely private joys.

You havent explained which society is right/wrong.

ro: Which society is right?

jc: A funny thing about this, is that if there is no soul Society B is right. If you really disappear at death, then it really doesn’t matter what you leave behind, devastation or joy. The question is how people can gain a vested interest in the long-term, when their minds can’t see past the short-term. This is a conundrum in the human religion hasn’t addressed.

ro: Society A is only right and society B is wrong ONLY because society A can appeal to something "the actual shape of the earth" that is above and beyond any humans opinion, preferences and desires. That is, they can appeal to a FACT. This is the only reason why they are right and society B is wrong.

jc: Yes, and Society B, which is the human society, denies the fact of future generations. Moses’ dictum, “Thou shalt not kill,” accuses them, because if each of them is using the resources that could support ten humans in the future, in a sense they are killing innocents, which is to say people who are not here to present the case they deserve resources too. Even the Declaration of Independence accuses them, asking for a right of everyone to pursue happiness, when the way men pursue happiness today kills the future.

ro: You havent explained which society is right/wrong.

jc: Society B is so wrong, that they’ll kill you for accusing them. This is the persecution of the saints Jesus mentioned, that still goes on today every bit or even more fiercely. I can say Society A is right, but if I do I’m asking for a society that is not like human society.

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Amoranemix

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Re: Creature flourishing/well being
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2019, 09:25:22 am »
Quote from: Rostos
Quote from: Amoranemix
Do you have a relevant point to make ?
[no response]
What was the purpose of your questions then ? Distract from the problems with your beliefs ?

Quote from: Rostos
Quote from: Amoranemix
[39] I wouldn't know. Has anyone claimed that it is more right than a definition that states the opposite ?
[no response]
Then why did you bring it up ?

Quote from: Rostos
Quote from: Amoranemix
[12] Search your posts for clear definitions of ambiguous concepts. How many do you find ? Show your clearest one.
[nothing]
If you call that a clear definition, it is understandable you believe in God.

Quote from: Rostos
Quote from: Amoranemix
In addition, you are more likely to remember what you discover yourself. Try answering the following question : Who decides what is a planet or a planetoid ? Then transpose the anwer to your own question.
[no response]
You forgot to answer my question.

Quote from: Rostos
Quote from: Amoranemix
[28] Can you prove that ? I suspect you are again conflating your desires with reality.
You forgot to answer my question.
[no response]
I thought so.

Quote from: jayceei
ro: Which society is right?
jc: A funny thing about this, is that if there is no soul Society B is right. If you really disappear at death, then it really doesn’t matter what you leave behind, devastation or joy.[35] The question is how people can gain a vested interest in the long-term, when their minds can’t see past the short-term. This is a conundrum in the human religion hasn’t addressed.
[35] Perhaps it doesn't matter to you, but it may matter to others.
The key to immortality is first live a life worth remembering. - Bruce Lee

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jayceeii

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Re: Creature flourishing/well being
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2019, 01:51:23 pm »
Quote from: jayceei
ro: Which society is right?
jc: A funny thing about this, is that if there is no soul Society B is right. If you really disappear at death, then it really doesn’t matter what you leave behind, devastation or joy.[35] The question is how people can gain a vested interest in the long-term, when their minds can’t see past the short-term. This is a conundrum in the human religion hasn’t addressed.
[35] Perhaps it doesn't matter to you, but it may matter to others.
ro: Which society is right?

jc: A funny thing about this, is that if there is no soul Society B is right. If you really disappear at death, then it really doesn’t matter what you leave behind, devastation or joy.[35] The question is how people can gain a vested interest in the long-term, when their minds can’t see past the short-term. This is a conundrum in the human religion hasn’t addressed.

Ax: [35] Perhaps it doesn't matter to you, but it may matter to others.

Jc2: The animals and the humans are alike in existential mindlessness. Education about this is not possible, and was certainly not attempted in the religions. A keen existential angst comes only to those who have seen the soul. In fact to find this living angst is one of the proofs the soul has been seen, although there are no specific experiences in that lifetime.  Yet the humans are missing another element as well, which is true enjoyment in living. When one has both true enjoyment of living and the ability to see death may be the total end of existence (with the annihilation of morality should immortality not be real), it makes the approach of the Lord or a true authority very easy. The person sees and knows they must rely on a higher power for the salvation of the soul only the Lord brings.

The people you cite as caring without existential angst, is all the people of Earth today including the cognoscenti in their imitations of humanity. Pride in the body is the source of the hubris of man, and all the wars and disobedience to God seen throughout history. In fact one of the major purposes of the religions is to induce a false sense of care, to people who cannot face existential realities (who are shallow and externally oriented). No proofs of immortality were needed, only rumors. It is even hearing these rumors which has been empowering the atheists too, to claim they stand apart from religion in morality.

Clearly, you are unable to see the grim truth of death, and are among the seven billion others. I could always see it, but waited to adulthood to look around to see I was alone.