CausalCode

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Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« on: December 02, 2017, 09:46:43 am »
The biblical God appears to lack sufficient knowledge to create humans as we are now with science and technology.

1. Think about Ford. If Ford had the knowledge to create modern 2017 ford vehicles decades ago, why would Ford bother to release cars powered by old technology back in the early days several decades ago?

2. Because ford developed cars with old technology, this is an indication of Ford's mental/power limit.

3. In a similar way, the bible God needed to make "ancient" human beings that needed to learn (using free will) how to get where we are today and this strongly indicates an insufficient creator that just didn't posses the knowledge to craft modern human beings.

In other words, God could have created humans as we are today with science and technology.

Note that we are would still have stuff to learn, (as we do today) so it is not a matter of creating humans that would have nothing to learn.

So, why didn't God create humans as we are today?

In conclusion, God appears to simply lack the knowledge required to make humans as we are today, with  science and technology. Thoughts?



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« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 07:48:40 pm by CausalCode »

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Paterfamilia

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 12:40:39 am »
1.  This should probably be in the “Choose Your Own Topic” section, not Community Debates.

2.  “Free will” typically refers to moral choice rather than technological advancement.

3.  It seems silly to suppose that God has the power to create the entire universe out of nothing but had to learn modern technology from humans.

C.  God’s purpose for creating humans has nothing to do with developing science and technology.
"First I knocked them out of a tree with a rock.  Then I saved them."

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Miles_Donahue

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2017, 10:39:56 am »
This argument is nothing new. It amounts to the claim that imperfections in the world point to an imperfect Creator (e.g., if God is all-powerful and all-knowing and created life on Earth, why do humans have wisdom teeth that only impede our functioning?). The claim here is that,

1. God is all-powerful and all-knowing,

is incompatible with,

2. Human beings were not created with the technological advancements of 2017.

How in the world are (1) and (2) incompatible? Why think that if God knew how to create the technology available today, he is under an obligation to create that technology thousands of years ago? I see no reason. Moreover, the argument reduces to absurdity because if God created 2017  technology thousands of years ago, one could similarly ask why he did not create 3017 technology, or 4017 technology, and so on. God would then never be able to create anything! God's being all-powerful and all-knowing only demands that he create human beings in a state optimal for His good purposes. If God's purpose in creating human beings is to allow them to develop the world through their own choices, growing in knowledge and maturity individually and as a species (rather than creating a world where humans look more like God's pets than God's creatures), then He cannot be faulted for allowing humans to develop our current technology on our own.

In short, God's purposes for the universe extend far beyond actualizing all the technology He knows how to create.
- Socrates said the unreflective life is not worth living. I say the indecisive life is not worth living, because even if you choose wrongly, at least you chose.

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CausalCode

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 03:02:29 am »
What do you think of the argument below, formulated in a more natural way:

1. The job of machine learning researchers is to make smart software that do things that humans are effortlessly good at, like recognizing images.

2. These smart software are loosely inspired by the human brain, so they can learn somewhat like humans do.

3. These researchers, because they are non omniscient, they don't know how to make the very smart software from scratch. As a result, the smart software that they build have to learn by trial and error/make mistakes in order to get better at doing tasks.

4. In a similar way, if Gods really gave humans free will, humans are using this free will to learn from past mistakes, where humans have actually gotten smarter and smarter as we developed science and technology.

5. This then has a surprising consequence; why would God need to give humans the chance to learn by free will, if God was smart enough to make modern intelligent humans without the need to learn by trial and error?

It implies that if free will is God given, God is non omniscient/non omnipotent in a similar way to how machine learning researchers are non omniscient, and therefore make smart software that need to learn by trial/error to get better at tasks!!!



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« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 07:49:04 pm by CausalCode »

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Paterfamilia

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 12:40:36 pm »
So let’s address your possible response to your colleague.  The de re answer would be that no one can make any meaningful propositions about the way that God made the universe or anything in it until we understand God’s purpose for His creation.

Therefore, his argument is unfounded.

As a Christian, you can refer to Genesis 11, where we read the account of people making the vast technological leap of baking clay into bricks, which enabled them to build a “tower to the heavens.”  God saw what they had done and said “now that they have done this, nothing that they think of will be impossible for them.”

He therefore confused their language so that they were hampered in their ability to make further tech discoveries.  We can conclude that God’s purpose for creating humans was not so that they could make these sort of achievements.

Food for thought - the description of the tree of life in Revelations refers to the leaves of the tree being for “the healing of the nations”.  Could this somehow be a process for reversing the confusion imposed by God at the Tower of Babel?



 
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CausalCode

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2018, 02:03:30 pm »
So let’s address your possible response to your colleague.  The de re answer would be that no one can make any meaningful propositions about the way that God made the universe or anything in it until we understand God’s purpose for His creation.

Therefore, his argument is unfounded.

As a Christian, you can refer to Genesis 11, where we read the account of people making the vast technological leap of baking clay into bricks, which enabled them to build a “tower to the heavens.”  God saw what they had done and said “now that they have done this, nothing that they think of will be impossible for them.”

He therefore confused their language so that they were hampered in their ability to make further tech discoveries.  We can conclude that God’s purpose for creating humans was not so that they could make these sort of achievements.

Food for thought - the description of the tree of life in Revelations refers to the leaves of the tree being for “the healing of the nations”.  Could this somehow be a process for reversing the confusion imposed by God at the Tower of Babel?

a.) I don't know if humans making tech is the bible God's purpose for humans, but tech has enabled humans to discover the plight and suffering of others (starving people in foreign nations, war tortured people etc)

This means tech has enabled us to locate and aid these people. There are still some tribes untouched by modern tech that don't have access to tech, that likely face extinction.

b.) Tech and medicine have also helped our total life spans to grow on average as time has passed. (I'm fairly certain WLC benefits from modern tech medicine, like my friend's grandpa around the same age)

c.) So, my prior argument still stands, whatever the bible God's purpose for us supposedly is, we have used tech to both harm ourselves, and flourish more than ever before, the population is several times larger, and average life spans are increasing.

d.) Technology will likely allow us to transcend planet earth, and may bring us abundance as production costs of food approach very low values as automation by artificial intelligence grows more and more. Thus, the bible God could have created humans at this level of tech, if He had the power to do so, as we would still have stuff to learn as we are still continuing to extend our lifespans and the chances to help each other.

e.) Instead, the bible God reasonably relied on allowing free will in humans, so we could learn to get to this point beyond what His power or knowledge could perform. Perhaps the bible God needed to rest on the 7th day after creation, as His knowledge and power could not suffice to create better measures of humans, among other possible yet unseen indications of limitations.



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« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 11:42:09 am by CausalCode »

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Paterfamilia

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 09:57:49 am »
What sort of person are you Causalcode?  Are you a good person?

If you answer “yes”, and I ask you to prove it, what would you say?  Will you point to your clever manipulation of your environment that made your life more comfortable?  Will you point to your improved ability to stay warm and eat healthy food?

Under what circumstances would you steal from another human being?  Under what circumstances would you kill another human being?  If you say you would never do either, I would have to humbly disagree.

In your short life you will have many opportunities to prove what sort of person you are, and then you will die.  God will then be very gracious to review with you every single behavior and attitude that you demonstrated during your short life on the earth.  He will be particularly interested in how you behaved when the pressure was really on.  Under extremity of pressure, did you behave selfishly, or did you behave self-sacrificially?

Our tech advancements simply change our context.  They don’t change our fundamental nature.  They don’t change our hearts.  God is interested in observing our demonstration of choices.  The tech level of our context is immaterial to that observation.  A good person will be good whether he is building a fire in a cave, or living in a high-tech mansion.

Speaking de re to your proposition, I can’t help but again express incredulity that anyone could possibly suppose that the God who is powerful enough to create a human being out of nothing would be left awestruck by an iPhone.  Doesn’t that just seem to be a little bit ridiculous?

"First I knocked them out of a tree with a rock.  Then I saved them."

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CausalCode

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2018, 09:23:29 am »
Our tech advancements simply change our context.  They don’t change our fundamental nature.  They don’t change our hearts.  God is interested in observing our demonstration of choices.  The tech level of our context is immaterial to that observation.  A good person will be good whether he is building a fire in a cave, or living in a high-tech mansion.


Nothing was preventing God from observing our choices, even if we were created today as is (Nothing that is, except His likely limitation).

Even today, we still have many choices to make.



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« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 11:42:15 am by CausalCode »

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CausalCode

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2018, 09:26:11 am »

Speaking de re to your proposition, I can’t help but again express incredulity that anyone could possibly suppose that the God who is powerful enough to create a human being out of nothing would be left awestruck by an iPhone.  Doesn’t that just seem to be a little bit ridiculous?

It is odd that you attempt to downplay technology (mind you that was used to build this very website); technology has enabled us to reach people in need of help, and technology continues to increase our rate of survival as time passes.

So, it is odd that God didn't create us as we are now, relying on giving us free will to reach our current position. (Maybe not so odd, given that God rested on the seventh day, he probably ran out of power/knowledge!)



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« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 11:42:19 am by CausalCode »

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Paterfamilia

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2018, 09:45:09 pm »
Hmmmm...

It’s odd to me that you claimed to be a Christian but seem to have little understanding of what that means.  In fact, your other posts depict you as an atheist.  What gives?  Why misrepresent yourself?

Also, you don’t seem to understand how a formal debate works, and you don’t understand what free will is even though it was explained to you.

I would add that your other “debate proposals” have similar issues.

You’re welcome here, but best to share ideas honestly in the appropriate section.

"First I knocked them out of a tree with a rock.  Then I saved them."

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CausalCode

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2018, 06:38:01 am »
Hmmmm...

It’s odd to me that you claimed to be a Christian but seem to have little understanding of what that means.  In fact, your other posts depict you as an atheist.  What gives?  Why misrepresent yourself?

Also, you don’t seem to understand how a formal debate works, and you don’t understand what free will is even though it was explained to you.

I would add that your other “debate proposals” have similar issues.

You’re welcome here, but best to share ideas honestly in the appropriate section.

1.) I don't detect where I have supposedly demonstrated lack of understanding wrt "Free Will".
2.) In fact "moral choice" is not disparate from "technological advancement", for moral choice has given rise to technological advancement.
3.) Thus your response in reply 1 is quite odd. (For that definition does not disregard the OP)
4.) Debates occur such that a moot is presented, together with opposing and supporting parties. (My proposals do not exclude said ingredients)
5.) I had long revealed in post 3 that I am not of Christian status, and I had long explained why I had initially introduced myself as such.



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« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 11:42:25 am by CausalCode »

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Paterfamilia

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2018, 07:53:16 am »
This is quoted from the "Guidelines" that you would do well to read:

"This is a space designed for structured debates within the Reasonable Faith online community.

Please note that new threads should only be created in this forum when two parties have agreed to a debate topic and format, and have a debate administrator who has agreed to oversee the whole process.

If you wish to issue a debate challenge, it can be done here in this thread, by PM, or in another forum.

I will update this post with a list of available challenges, debate administrators, etc."



"First I knocked them out of a tree with a rock.  Then I saved them."

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CausalCode

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2018, 11:04:19 am »
This is quoted from the "Guidelines" that you would do well to read:

"This is a space designed for structured debates within the Reasonable Faith online community.

Please note that new threads should only be created in this forum when two parties have agreed to a debate topic and format, and have a debate administrator who has agreed to oversee the whole process.

If you wish to issue a debate challenge, it can be done here in this thread, by PM, or in another forum.

I will update this post with a list of available challenges, debate administrators, etc."

Thanks.
I shall post in "Choose your own topic" section, as per your advice.
If you're a mod, you may delete all the threads I've created in the debate section.



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« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 11:42:30 am by CausalCode »

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tanghao

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2018, 10:10:55 pm »
Our tech advancements simply change our context.  They don’t change our fundamental nature.  They don’t change our hearts.  God is interested in observing our demonstration of choices.  The tech level of our context is immaterial to that observation.  A good person will be good whether he is building a fire in a cave, or living in a high-tech mansion.

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dcrump

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Re: Free will is a sign of God's "inescapable weakness"?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 08:29:41 am »
Hello.  Perhaps you can respond to the person arguing for God's lack of sufficient knowledge by stating:

a) It's clear they believe in the existence of God as they are claiming that God lacks knowledge.  By their own statement they're saying that God exists, but that he is lacking in an area.  However, I think even the most generalists would agree that by definition God is someone or something that is all powerful in ever way, eternal and without limitation. 

b) "Think about Ford. If Ford had the knowledge to create modern 2017 ford vehicles decades ago, why would Ford bother to release cars powered by old technology back in the early days several decades ago?" This is no way proves a lack of knowledge on the part of God.  It presupposes that God can't see or know the future and therefore lacks the ability to prepare man for it.  However, we must consider:

1. The future is relative to time and God is outside of the time continuum which he created.  Therefore, arguments against the nature of God that incorporate time simply aren't valid because God has never been connected to or dependent upon it
2. The possibility that God has a perfect plan which could include a line of demarcation concerning our ability to think far into the future.  If that is possible then the presupposition of God having a lack of knowledge gets completely turned around.  Perhaps its not a lack of knowledge, but his omniscience that  allows Him to know of an outcome in-congruent with his divine plan should Ford be allowed to envision in 1896 more powerful vehicles such as we see on the road today.

c) The possibility that God did give Ford the insight and vision to create more powerful vehicles in decades ago.  Because there appears to be no history to show that does not prove that God did not offer the knowledge to Ford.  If this is possible, then there are potentially a plethora of reasons why Ford didn't produce such vehicles such as:

1.  A failure to act on the vision
2. The vision to produce more powerful vehicles was given to Ford but not specifically for the generation in which he lived. After all, today Ford does indeed produce more powerful vehicles but the vision to do so must've begun at some point
3. The vision to produce more powerful vehicles was entrusted to someone else, who perhaps did not "run" with it as quickly as Ford would've

I pray the above is helpful in some way.