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God, mind and infinity
« on: February 05, 2018, 03:56:01 am »
Hi there,
There is  an attack on the Kalam Cosmological Argument that sounds something like this:

1. God could not create the Universe before time, because this requires him thinking outside time and a process of thinking is sequential (one thought comes after the other)
2. God existing outside time is "Frozen in time" and is unable to do anything since you need time to will to stand while sitting, and then stand.

How would you answer this ?

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kyrani99

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Re: God, mind and infinity
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2018, 06:25:23 am »
This argument presupposes that God is like a human and it presupposes that time is outside of the creation and independent of the creation. 

God is not like humans. We, as conscious beings are made in the likeness of God, but I believe that likeness has to do with consciousness and not some physical likeness.

The spiritual realm is outside of the physical realm and outside of The Mind (of the Supreme Being /God).

In my understanding...
Creation, (all universes) comes into being when the information and rules that govern that information, i.e., meanings, all of which are in The Mind ( of the Supreme Being/ God), are selected and upheld in the Divine Consciousness.. The information in The Mind is non-physical and we perceive it as ideas and thoughts..

Time and space are perceptions that conscious beings have within an embodiment and interacting in the physical realm. The conscious beings experience, but within creation that experiences appears to have some time and factors. .

The nature of God is not knowable. Even in an enlightenment experience (Grace/ apotheosis), where there is union with God, the nature of God is still not knowable.
If I should love Thee for fear of some burning hell,
   burn me in that hell.
If I should love Thee for want of some paradise,
  deny me that paradise.
But as I love Thee for Thy Sake alone,
   deny me not Thy Everlasting Beatitude.

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noncontingent

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Re: God, mind and infinity
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2018, 09:09:50 pm »
On #1, I'd say you're right that he didn't think sequentially prior to creating time because that requires time. This is something I've been "thinking" about and I "think" I can only "think" by way of analogy. I think that we all think that way. We have a certain instinct of how things are and we build on this by way of recursive experience and analogy building as we grow. So to approach this question, I'd like to propose a computational analogy. In the old days of computers you'd have an arithmetic logic unit, a peripheral processing unit and a central processing unit. To make a computation was entirely serial. You could only do one computation at a time. Later there was a sharing which developed where interrupts would interrupt the CPU to allow another quiescent process to "live" for a moment in the CPU and then it would go back to the "grave" of quiescence when another interrupt occurred for another computational process. From the end user perspective this was still pretty fast so many times from this user perspective it would at times seem like simultaneous events, though these weren't. Later on in the computer era there developed things like bipolar memory and parallel processing. This has continued with processing power and on to the grid computing environment where multiple CPUs are breaking down problems into parsable components and working on them in parallel and then combining the results to the end users at the end.  Now with the idea of quantum computing you have the idea of all possible paths being assessed at once in a problem solving situation. You combine this idea with an unlimited power and unlimited computation capacity and zero time and you have all possible problems, all possible thoughts and all possible experiences which could ever be experienced by a finite instantiated in-time mind such as our own and you have upstream in God a being who could always say "been there, done that". No need for God to "think" in the manner we are accustomed to think about when we say we are thinking about something.  Having just written the previous in a stream of conscious sort of way I'd say that's as close as I can get to thinking about Gods thinking.

The Bible addresses our limitations:
In John 14:8-11 (ESV) - "Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

In John 3:11-13 (ESV) - "1 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you[f] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.[g]"

In Exodus 33:17-23 (ESV) - "17And the Lord said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” 18Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” 21And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”

I think the above are telling us that we have limits and that we have to study Jesus and his manifestations as we read the scriptures and meditate on these and as we apply these to ourselves and go into our private chamber and ask our heavenly Father for wisdom, to the extent we have been faithful, more will be added to us.

I think the mistake we (and I can't but include myself) is that we look at the world and it's like looking at a deep body of water which is calm on the surface. We look down and we see our reflection and we see the sky, but there is so much more under the waters in the depths, but as long as the instantiation of what we are is a human in a human body with human limitations, we can only travel so deep under the surface before we have to return for air.

On #2. I think this makes a presumption that some sort of "uber-time" existed for God to be frozen in it. He wasn't frozen. If anything we were frozen and came to life when he willed it by creating time and entering into time and temporality at this point.

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jayceeii

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Re: God, mind and infinity
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2018, 01:01:22 pm »
Unfortunately we’re forced to a conclusion that God Himself came out of nothing. One way of looking at it is that Spirit existed, that eventually coalesced, finding Itself with Power and an ability of introspection (a Person). Then, if time is defined as the expansion of Spirit, time always was, and God Himself may not know the beginning. Or if He knows, it may be something that could not be explained to a mind on the physical plane.

If the universe is expanding, then God and Spirit are also expanding. More importantly, there’s an eternal Source of Power, by which God lives and acts. Drawing things back to a singularity, as the physicists try to do, may be somewhat on the right track, at least to our abilities to comprehend such things. Except this singularity is an eternal Source of both Power and Spirit, perhaps like a Crack in Reality, something coming from nothing.

As God found Himself existing Alone, He may have seen the opportunities Spirit presented, considering His Power. Thus the creation may have been woven from unthinking regions of His own Spirit, a story that closely allies with the Hindu ideas about Brahman bringing the creation out from Himself. It is however vital to know if the entities are granted eternal existence, or if Brahman will draw it all back into Himself.