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Language-Gamer

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WLC on Adam
« on: July 10, 2018, 08:52:30 am »
Here. This should be obvious but I know people have a difficult time reading: these comments on the Bible are about the proper interpretation of the texts, not about him saying they are false in order to make things work.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

1

GRWelsh

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2018, 11:05:35 am »
It should also be obvious that it cannot be discounted that increased scientific understanding of human origins prompts different interpretations of Genesis.  And that results in Christians saying things like "This doesn't mean Genesis is false, but simply that we need to interpret the text within its proper genre."  But lets see that for what it is: it allows for never having to admit anything in the Bible is false.  It allows Christians to think: "Without a primordial pair confirmed by science, we'll remain agnostic about how the Bible should be interpreted in that regard... But if science confirms such a primordial pair -- oh wow! -- we'll all get very excited and publish lots of articles about how science confirms a foundational Biblical claim!"
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 11:08:28 am by GRWelsh »
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

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Language-Gamer

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2018, 12:46:18 pm »
whatever helps you sleep at night.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

3

Harvey

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2018, 01:22:11 pm »
It should also be obvious that it cannot be discounted that increased scientific understanding of human origins prompts different interpretations of Genesis.  And that results in Christians saying things like "This doesn't mean Genesis is false, but simply that we need to interpret the text within its proper genre."  But lets see that for what it is: it allows for never having to admit anything in the Bible is false.  It allows Christians to think: "Without a primordial pair confirmed by science, we'll remain agnostic about how the Bible should be interpreted in that regard... But if science confirms such a primordial pair -- oh wow! -- we'll all get very excited and publish lots of articles about how science confirms a foundational Biblical claim!"

I think we first need to start with the miraculous timing of Genesis 1 as to how it conforms to the actual natural history of life.

"Day 1":  "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep"  See here how the earth began as formless in the darkness of space, and how gravity causes nuclear reaction to bring about light in the newly formed solar system. Also see here about protostars and how "nuclear fusion ignites at the center of the collapsing protostellar cloud, and a new star is formed."

"Day 2": "“Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it."  See here how the atmosphere "came about through a process called outgassing. After the planets formed, gases slowly vented from their interiors."

"Day 3": "'Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.' And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground 'land,' and the gathered waters he called 'seas.'"  See here how: "Most of the water was probably present originally as water trapped in clay minerals or as separate hydrogen (in hydrocarbons) and oxygen (in iron oxides)."

"Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." See here how life goes back to 4 billion years ago or earlier.

"Day 4":  "“Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness."  See here how the earth's methane haze may have kept the earth from having a clear sky for a billion years after its creation.

"Day 5": "“Let the water teem with living creatures, and let [flying things] fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”  So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the [flying things] increase on the earth.” See here on how the earth began teaming with life in the oceans.

"Day 6"  "“Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” Land creatures was the last major step in evolution. Once the ozone layer was in place, it allowed this major movement onto land.

It's all kind of miraculous that the Bible got the timing correct without modern science.

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GRWelsh

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2018, 01:29:56 pm »
Well, you guys have to admit that if there was strong scientific evidence for a primordial pair of ancestors who lived around 6,000 years ago -- with no evidence of any prior ancestors themselves -- creatio (poof) ex nihilo -- that would prompt a certain interpretation of the text... A much more straightforward one.
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

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Lennon

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2018, 01:38:45 pm »
That order isn't correct

Got the order of birds wrong, which come after land animals

Also the sun and stars existed before creation of earth

The earth was never dark because the sun was there first.

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Language-Gamer

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2018, 01:39:28 pm »
Sounds like you left out a subject. That would prompt me to interpret it that way? Or some other people? Who? Sounds like you are just making things up to fit the narrative you want.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

7

Jabberwock

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2018, 02:10:26 pm »
whatever helps you sleep at night.

That is immensely ironic in a thread on conference about historicity of Adam.
First learn to spell "ironic discussion"...

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Language-Gamer

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2018, 02:19:56 pm »
whatever helps you sleep at night.

That is immensely ironic in a thread on conference about historicity of Adam.

First learn to spell “ironic discussion”...
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

9

Relativist

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2018, 03:10:52 pm »
whatever helps you sleep at night.

That is immensely ironic in a thread on conference about historicity of Adam.
It is?!  I thought LG was referring to apologists sleeping at night.

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Harvey

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2018, 03:43:44 pm »
Well, you guys have to admit that if there was strong scientific evidence for a primordial pair of ancestors who lived around 6,000 years ago -- with no evidence of any prior ancestors themselves -- creatio (poof) ex nihilo -- that would prompt a certain interpretation of the text... A much more straightforward one.

Sure, but look at the miraculous sequence that I just posted GR. The chances of that being so spot on is unbelievable given the amount of science that it took to have this understanding. So, when we consider Adam and Eve, it should open up our options as to how to understand what took place and when. There's nothing in Genesis that dates the account to 6,000 years ago. One thing that becomes apparent from Gen. 2-3 is that we're actually interpreting things by putting time frames on things. For example:

Quote
Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Why assume that this took place "all at once"? There's nothing in the text that says how fast this process was. There could be 4 billion years of evolution from the time that the forming from the clay began to when it was completed. Also, in verse 19:

Quote
Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky.

Again, it's an assumption to think this all happened in one day or a short period of time. We could be talking about 4 billion years of evolution. In addition, it's also a mistake to think that the creatures being formed out of the ground was a different process than having formed Adam out of the ground. We're reading into things by making that assumption. Adam and the animals could have been one long process of forming all life from the ground as it states in chapter 1 ("Let the earth produce living creatures according to their kinds").


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GRWelsh

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2018, 03:48:23 pm »
That order isn't correct

Got the order of birds wrong, which come after land animals

Also the sun and stars existed before creation of earth

The earth was never dark because the sun was there first.

Lennon, you have outlined the "straightforward" interpretation.  But Harvey's post is case in point for what I am talking about.  If you start out presupposing  "the Bible is true -- somehow -- some way -- we just need to figure out how it is true" then you may come up with a "counterintuitive" interpretation of creation that reconciles Biblical passages with scientific findings.  So, the passage that says God made the sun, moon, and stars may really mean that is when God revealed them by making the atmosphere less hazy.  Revealed to whom?  That is still unclear, since according to this timeline God hadn't created earthly life yet.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 03:51:08 pm by GRWelsh »
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

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Harvey

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2018, 03:55:17 pm »
That order isn't correct

Got the order of birds wrong, which come after land animals

The earth was never dark because the sun was there first.

Lennon, "birds" is translated from the Hebrew word עֹ֤וף which means flying things. There are flying fish who would qualify as a flying thing.

Quote from: lennon
Also the sun and stars existed before creation of earth

The translation of Gen. 1;16 that he made the stars can just as easily be translated as a pluperfect verb that he had made the stars.  Also, "made" comes from the Hebrew word וַיַּ֣עַשׂ which can just as well mean "appointed" in the sky for a particular function which would have literally begun once the planetary haze had left.

Btw, I'm not arguing that this is how the ancient Hebrews thought. I'm just stating that you "can" get an accurate reading from Genesis by a few loopholes that are legit. While the loopholes can make us smirk because we can hardly take them serious, but at the same time it is still miraculous that you can take a piece of mythological literature from almost three millennia ago and still produce an accurate scientific document with not that much difficulty. That's what is amazing about it. No one is suggesting that Hebrews were just poorly misunderstood in what they wrote. 

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Lennon

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2018, 04:13:24 pm »
What's miraculous is the length people will go to avoid the conclusion that the Hebrews were just another Bronze Age tribe writing down their mythology, same as people from all cultures around the world at the time.

Harvey is there anything that would convince you that the bible is just another book of ,myths?

( Notice I'm not asking you to be an atheist - plenty of theists who aren't Judeo-Christians.)

And GRWelsh of course you are right.

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Harvey

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Re: WLC on Adam
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2018, 04:26:41 pm »
Lennon, you have outlined the "straightforward" interpretation.  But Harvey's post is case in point for what I am talking about.  If you start out presupposing  "the Bible is true -- somehow -- some way -- we just need to figure out how it is true" then you may come up with a "counterintuitive" interpretation of creation that reconciles Biblical passages with scientific findings.  So, the passage that says God made the sun, moon, and stars may really mean that is when God revealed them by making the atmosphere less hazy.  Revealed to whom?  That is still unclear, since according to this timeline God hadn't created earthly life yet.

You gotta play by the rules, GR. The rules state that if you can trick the past history of the world by inserting scientifically correct material without giving anyone scientific information (which would interfere with the natural development of the world) then you have in effect given people good reason to believe the Bible and in God's existence.